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The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

staltz.com

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Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#51
In 1994 I was junior in high school and took as many years of auto-tech as possible. In the end we were rebuilding engines and air-conditioning units. And yeah, our high school had welding, cnc, woodworking, auto-cad, and even lumber-jacking as electives.

But I took a lot of auto-tech, three years of it. And the funny thing is I have never gotten my license. I'm nearly 45 years old and have never been able to legally drive a car.

But I was living with my sister at the time who was 18 and our landlord had a weird crush on her. Our landlord also owned a ton of properties in Eugene. And he would have me mow as many lawns as I wanted for 8 bucks a hour. Most of his rentals were to elderly people. I was making double the minimum wage and had no shortage of work. But I also had a girlfriend and skateboarding and bowling league to attend to. I did the minimum to maintain to healthy balance. If I needed new shoes I would mow a extra lawn. Skateboarding is hard on shoes. I would go through a pair a month.

But eventually I found myself doing auto stuff for people after mowing their lawns. I would get scheduled for oil changes, filters, plugs, brakes.. Eventually I was mostly doing auto maintenance for people and I charged significantly more. I had a lot of cash for a kid in high school with a Operation Ivy T-shirt.

Enter the internet.

My buddy Billy went to the University and could get me a cheap computer. This was back when Apple had serious discounts for students. I got a Performa 6214, Stylewriter 1200, and 14" Multisync monitor for about $900. A significant discount.

And Bill gave me his dial-up info into his university account. He gave it out to a lot of people. They didn't check if multiple people were using it. Back then we mostly looked up stuff about how to make LSD and mortal kombat fatality codes. It was Amazing. And a lot of very slow loading scans from porno mags.

But a person that was exploring this new thing that was non-commercial with me had a forward-thinking father. He was a real-estate agent and thought the internet was cool. So he wanted to put his listings on the internet that nobody would ever possibly use for looking at houses. Images were brutal since dial-up was the norm. And we used tables since css wasn't a thing back then.

But we made a commercial site. A site for a real-estate agent. And we hosted it on the university's of Oregon's site since we didn't really know how to get a domain name or find hosting. But it was pure HTML.

He paid us well to update the site with new listings. But then the dot.com thing happened and I got a job at a movie theater and wouldn't touch the internet until 2002.

edit :: I forgot to add that I think I might have been responsible for making the internet worse.

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#52
post #48
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between 1994 and 2014 seems more quantitative though. Here we are talking about the ownership of the referral traffic and how those companies who own it try to benefit from it. Nothing that happened between 1994 and 2014 comes close to it in terms of the impact on how people see the Internet and by extension how they see the world today.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but disagreeing with this part of it. The change between 1994 and 2014 is the difference between the internet growing to global dominance in everything from social connections to . . . well, is there anything about our lives that hasn't rested somehow on our usage of the internet since well before 2014? It seems to me that the internet of MSDOS 3.10based computers and dial-up…

It is true that online shopping and online ads alone have created a whole new industry in a very business sense of the word. The change happened some time towards the end of the 1990s.

However, imagine you discover a new continent with vast resources and invite everyone to share the land and start producing and trading. When all land grabbing is done you begin to notice the rise of some powerful players who buy out or simply squeeze out smaller land owners. At one point your whole continent and the traffic within it becomes either directly owned or dependent on these giants to such an extent that you simply die if you don't play by their rules. Your continent now more looks like a conglomerate controlled by only a few powerful corporations rather than a free republic. And we can't even be sure they didn't make arrangements between them behind the scenes. So it's the ownership that's different now, which is nothing new really, we all kind of know about it.

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#53
post #33

In addition, what's changed between 2017 and now is that back then Google was still admired by the tech people. "Google is evil" sounded ridiculous only a few years ago. I've been ridiculed by my colleagues and fellow engineers every time I said it. But I think it began to change with the introduction of AMP, a growing list of products discontinued for no apparent reason, failures of some of the new products often pr…

"back then Google was still admired by the tech people" "Losing our support" why do you generalize 'tech people' as 'we' ? I'm in tech and I've been for 30+ years. I still admire Google. Sure some tech people don't like Google anymore or even never have. But I wouldn't generalize my case nor should you generalize yours. And it's not all or nothing: I want to believe most tech people are mature and educated enough to…

People who think carefully then call Google 'evil' may as well be the same people who used to call it 'good'. Corporations aren't good or evil. They are powerful.

Being good is many things, but a key part of that is restraining the self from acting improperly. Corporations can't do that, they will sooner or later do whatever makes money. Or they get replaced sooner or later by a corporation that will. At best, there are stylistic differences around the edges that are simultaneously important but minor in the grand scheme of things. Sooner or later a corporation will be thinking primarily in terms of 'profitable' and 'not profitable'.

Calling Google 'evil' is trying to articulate something else - Google are powerful and dangerous. Any entity harvesting and directing the flow of information at that scale is. They have an unprecedented capability to cause harm; and sooner or later it will get used by someone to do exactly that.

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#55

FTA: "GOOG and FB ceased competing directly, focusing on what they do best instead." “People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices” - Adam Smith Some things never change.

I think Smith is almost right, a _conspiracy_ is likely in the broadest sense but he's wrong to suppose it will necessarily be against the public.

So, the CAB is maybe a useful contrasting example. The CA/Browser Forum (CA/B or CAB for short) was a meeting that happened as a mixture of conference calls and email lists back in 2011 or so. This is where Extended Validation (the green bar) comes from, but ultimately CA/B metamorphosed into a standing (in the sense of ongoing, not you can't sit down) meeting, still going on today, for the Certificate Authorities and the Browsers (today in practice the Operating System vendors, but with Mozilla standing in for the Free Unixes) to get together to figure out what the rules are.

Because of what Smith notes, the CA/B's rules are explicit that discussion about prices, product offerings and so on is prohibited, if you want to conspire to raise prices you'll have to do it somewhere else.

But plenty of _good_ things can be agreed this way. Contrast the many years it took to get rid of MD5 from certificates (which happened before CA/B existed) despite collisions being known - against SHA-1 where CA/B was able to co-ordinate industry wide discontinuation of SHA-1 with only a handful of minor defections before even a single proven collision of the hash was published.

More broadly I'd argue that the IETF, and certainly the thrice annual IETF physical meetings (the most recent was in Singapore last week) are exactly "people of the same trade... meet together" and you could characterise plenty of the work done at many Working Groups (obviously DPRIVE and QUIC but I don't see any reason you couldn't make this claim for KITTEN for example) as a conspiracy, just that it's only "against the public" if you think global surveillance was what "the public" wanted...

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#56
post #33

In addition, what's changed between 2017 and now is that back then Google was still admired by the tech people. "Google is evil" sounded ridiculous only a few years ago. I've been ridiculed by my colleagues and fellow engineers every time I said it. But I think it began to change with the introduction of AMP, a growing list of products discontinued for no apparent reason, failures of some of the new products often pr…

"back then Google was still admired by the tech people" "Losing our support" why do you generalize 'tech people' as 'we' ? I'm in tech and I've been for 30+ years. I still admire Google. Sure some tech people don't like Google anymore or even never have. But I wouldn't generalize my case nor should you generalize yours. And it's not all or nothing: I want to believe most tech people are mature and educated enough to…

"Losing our support" means a process, it doesn't mean everybody hates Google now, of course it's not the case.

> I always question the agenda of people promoting this.

My only agenda is my growing frustration with using Google Search and the lack of competition. Web pages can be excluded now for not using any of Google's plugins for example. I see how Search is increasingly becoming a tool for plain old profit maximization. It is generally up to Google to do whatever they desire with their own products, however the belief that Search is fair and "democratic" is lost now. No matter how technically competent, Google is lost for me as a company I can trust.

So, where is my fair, convenient and comprehensive search of information on the Web? There's none on the horizon. This is very worrying.

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#57
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"back then Google was still admired by the tech people" "Losing our support" why do you generalize 'tech people' as 'we' ? I'm in tech and I've been for 30+ years. I still admire Google. Sure some tech people don't like Google anymore or even never have. But I wouldn't generalize my case nor should you generalize yours. And it's not all or nothing: I want to believe most tech people are mature and educated enough to…

"Losing our support" means a process, it doesn't mean everybody hates Google now, of course it's not the case. > I always question the agenda of people promoting this. My only agenda is my growing frustration with using Google Search and the lack of competition. Web pages can be excluded now for not using any of Google's plugins for example. I see how Search is increasingly becoming a tool for plain old profit maximi…

As an anecdote, I installed Vivaldi on a new laptop recently. It uses Bing as the default search engine. Previously I would always change this to Google, but this time I thought, "Hah, Google has been shit for a while now, why not give Bing a try?"

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#58
post #33

In addition, what's changed between 2017 and now is that back then Google was still admired by the tech people. "Google is evil" sounded ridiculous only a few years ago. I've been ridiculed by my colleagues and fellow engineers every time I said it. But I think it began to change with the introduction of AMP, a growing list of products discontinued for no apparent reason, failures of some of the new products often pr…

"back then Google was still admired by the tech people" "Losing our support" why do you generalize 'tech people' as 'we' ? I'm in tech and I've been for 30+ years. I still admire Google. Sure some tech people don't like Google anymore or even never have. But I wouldn't generalize my case nor should you generalize yours. And it's not all or nothing: I want to believe most tech people are mature and educated enough to…

> But I wouldn't generalize my case nor should you generalize yours.

The way I read statements that you replied to is with a silent prefix "based on the experience of folks I work/talk with". If one disagrees (i.e., sees different views prevalent), chime in and say so. There must be a way to express opinions that are between "that's my personal view" and "statistically significant, peer reviewed validation at this link".

As a personal data point, I see the same thing (around me) as the parent: opinions of Google tanked. 10 years ago an employee leaving for Google would be discussed with "wow" and "best of luck" feeling, while today it is mostly "well, at least he will be well paid" and " I am not yet ready to sell my soul". Just my 2c.

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#59
I don't think it's accurate to count stuff like youtube and google cloud as part of the %. It's gigabyte heavy but attention light. Just raw data about cat videos.

Compare it with say whatsapp traffic - that has a crazy high amount of attention crammed into each gigabyte.

Doesn't really change the message/conclusion but the metric used here seem flawed.

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#60
I've always the held the somewhat cynical position that this sort of stuff would push [the interesting] people towards other, decentralized Internets. I'm a big fan of new projects like IPFS and DAT, and GNUnet had a great call to arms on their about page (which seems to have been moderated a little) [1] saying very similar things to the article. Maybe the internet of things will save us after all, by finally providing the vast, dense network of interconnected wireless devices that is needed to provide a robust structure to a really distributed net.

[1] https://gnunet.org/en/about.html

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