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In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

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Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#151

Post by ths »

sbt wrote: post #96

My God, where to begin on this unnecessarily provocative link-bait fuckup of a story. "This is particularly surprising, because the prices Dalmo pays for government services are among the highest in the world." >Of course, the country has some of the highest wages in the world so nursing is naturally not as cheap as in Nepal. "The capitalist system functions well," Dalmo says. "But I'm a socialist in my bones." > Let…

Let's also not forget the fact that Norway is a very oil-rich country which brings a huge degree of wealth into the economy, and this skews the image considerably. You might have noticed that the guy the article talks about got rich selling stuff to -- guess who? -- the Norwegian oil industry.

The number of startups in a given community doesn't causate a great entrepreneurship scene. By that metric Norway could just give every team that's interested 50k dollars from their oil, call them a startup and automatically have a more vibrant startup scene than Silicon Valley. Troll economics, anyone?

People also overestimate the degree to which the US is capitalistic. Government spending in the US is now around 40%, with the free-market days of the pre-WWII era long replaced by a heavy-handed state that has never shrunk meaningfully. Maybe we Scandinavians run our bloated government bureaucracies more efficiently in our comparatively small, historically homogenous societies, but they're certainly not the reason we're rich. We're rich because we've been relatively free and capitalistic for a long time, also historically enjoying relatively low political corruption and a strong rule of law. At least that's the picture as I see it, being an Icelander that has lived and worked in Denmark I feel I grok the way these relatively small communities of my kinsmen work on a gut level.

One more thing: New Hampshire is one of the richest states in the USA, has about the same population as Norway and has a higher GDP per capita. If we're going to compare the US to Norway (one of the richest European countries) while excluding other much poorer countries from the equation, we should also compare New Hampshire to Europe to put things in proper perspective.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#152

Post by rshigeta »

uuilly wrote: post #48
zdw wrote: post #7

If you have less to lose, you're more willing to take risks. Thus having the government take care of basic welfare and health care benefits frees people to be entrepreneurial, in a sense. Compare to the US, where people are tied to a job based on the benefits they have through that job, and before the health care legislation's removal of preexisting conditions clauses, if you had a medical condition and lost your job…

I paid $60 a month for catastrophic healthcare from State Farm when I ran a ramen profitable startup. My deductible was $1500. When I nearly cut my toe off walking on a beach, I had surgery, $1000 worth of antibiotics and two follow up visits. I paid a grand total of $1500 for everything. I know I'm a healthy young man, but that seemed like a pretty fair deal to me. Amazingly this plan will soon become illegal for be…

That's debate in the US - everyone just says 'what is good for me'. The point of the article is that in Norway, the evaluation of 'what is good for us' works for them suprisingly well and doesn't stop people from starting businesses.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#153

Post by michael_dorfman »

marvin wrote: post #149
michael_dorfman wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private financing for computer startups is nonexistent. Really? I've never had problem with this. Nor have I felt the tax system has disincentivized my income (which is well into the top bracket.)

What sort of startups/work have you been doing? When I'm talking about disincentivizing, I just mean that making the conscious decision of working more seems like a no-brainer. Your personal reasoning behind this may be different, but overall, fewer people will do this if they only get paid for 70-80% of the extra hours than if they get paid for all of them.

Really? You think there is a linear relationship between tax rates and hours worked? It's never worked that way in my experience, either as an employee or as a founder.

As an owner, you don't get paid for hours, full-stop. You get paid for outcomes. I don't know about you, but if the government raised the corporate tax rate by 5%, that would have no bearing on my desire to have my company succeed.

The same holds true, ceteris paribus, for my years as an employee. I worked hard (and a lot of hours) because I enjoyed what I was doing, and wanted the company to succeed, even if my income was divorced from the hours worked--as it was, most of the time, as a salaried employee. In other words, I got paid zero percent of the "extra hours", and yet still worked them, gladly, for other reasons.

Naturally, YMMV.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#155

Post by awt »

michael_dorfman wrote: post #13
beoba wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first thing I learned is that Norwegians don't think about taxes the way we do. Whereas most Americans see taxes as a burden, Norwegian entrepreneurs tend to see them as a purchase, an exchange of cash for services. "I look at it as a lifelong investment," says Davor Sutija, CEO of Thinfilm[...].

Exactly. I've been living in Norway for over a decade, and I've never heard anyone complain about their taxes, or paying $9/gallon for gas.

What do you do in Norway? How did you come to live there?

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#156

Post by Norse »

ThomPete wrote: post #144
Norse wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the size argument a lot. But I never hear it. It crops up on the internet a lot, but never in the serious debate. You always compare countries. Iceland to Austria to Italy to Britain to Germany to Japan. That is a lot of what people do in these areas. No-ones ever pointed out a mechanism which would make it impossible to compare countries of varying sizes to each other. And normally, the advantage accrues to t…

Sorry but serious debate? The article talks about Norway as being socialist. How serious is that? With regards to the number of startups I would like to see the actual data they use to derive at this number. For instance government funded initiatives are often part of the scandinavian models to push startups. Which means a lot of cleaning companies and window polishers become part of the statistics. Also a lot of peo…

I am saying that all the advantages go to the country with the biggest size. Economics of size. Bigger market. One language. One set of regulations. There is far better economic opportunity in the larger country, whn you just look at the size.

That is fact. Not an opinion.

Also, macroeconomics, public health, health care economics, etc compare countries all the time. Fact. The argument "It doesn't compare due to size" is something that crops up on the internet with people trotting it out as a reason for why their policies/countries/footballteams cannot possibly be expected to perform. There is never any reasoning for why size has this effect of excusing select objects from comparing to others of the same class. Nor any musings on whether the scaling can be compensated for. It is an internet thing, this cry of "SIZE! Can't be compared."

Menawhile, if yoy check out some serious research papers of a nmber of disciplines, you'll see they don't hesitiate to compare countries of widly differing sizes.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#157

Post by rprasad »

cromulent wrote: post #22
tallanvor wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all in how you define a term, but traditionally Norway is a very socialist country - The major businesses were owned by the state, and while that has changed, the government does still hold large stakes in telecom, oil, and transportation companies. Private businesses also generally have a much flatter hierarchy than you find in the US, and income distribution is much more equally. And, of course, the member par…

Of course you can slice the definitions in different ways, but the common definition is that the capitalist ideal of all means of production being in private hands and socialism is the opposite of that - they are all in public hands. Norway is a mixed economy. I think that the USA and Norway are not at the poles of that continuum but much more close together, especially given the Fed's recent acquisitions.

Socialism allows for but disfavors private ownership. Communism requires public ownership. That is the practical difference between the two.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#158

Post by rprasad »

brc wrote: post #73
tallanvor wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all in how you define a term, but traditionally Norway is a very socialist country - The major businesses were owned by the state, and while that has changed, the government does still hold large stakes in telecom, oil, and transportation companies. Private businesses also generally have a much flatter hierarchy than you find in the US, and income distribution is much more equally. And, of course, the member par…

You're free to leave Norway whenever you like. You can own private property in Norway, and grow your business and keep at least half the profits. Socialist countries have state ownership, no private property, restrictions on freedoms. Norway is a social democracy. At any point the government could be voted out and replaced with one that changes all the laws. It's not a socialist country.

I think you're mixing up Communism and Socialism, or simply just using the post-Reagan-redefinitions.

Communism = everyone everythings (owns, decides, does). Socialism = everyone decides and does, but does not own.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#159

Post by rick888 »

tankenmate wrote: post #129
rick888 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Bad guess. My first startup had a successful exit; I'm not at liberty to discuss the numbers, but let's just say that it was for a satisfying amount with the appropriate number of zeroes." ok. So why say "we all aren't in it for the money", when that is obviously not the case for you. "I'm not purely in it for the money; I'm in it for the quality of life." So you are interested in running a lifestyle business ( http…

The point he was making is the marginal gain from $1,000,000 to $1,100,000 is very different from the marginal gain from $0 to $100,000.

Does it really matter? It seems the leftists have flooded ycombinator and don't really want to hear anything besides their own viewpoint.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#160

Post by relic17 »

kunley wrote: post #120

Funny that in the information era one can learn from mistakes of others, yet many people don't do this. As someone who lived half of a life in a country which was an experiment on socialism, I wish them luck. And I wish they regain their senses. Quickly.

Very true. Many refuse to think logically and accept whatever happens to be the fashionable idea of the day. My family and I also had to witness a similar experiment. I join you in your wishes.
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