In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism • Hacker News Board

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#61

Post by michael_dorfman » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 9:28 PM UTC

marvin wrote: post #53

ThomPete wrote: post #32

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Norway don't say yes to socialism they say yes to social welfare in a different way than in the US. So do Denmark (where I am from) and Sweden. Yes the taxes are higher (up to 60% in Denmark with a progressive tax system) and about the same I believe in Norway. But it's not like everyone walks around an love it. In fact there is great opposition to the level that taxation have g…

Thanks for setting the record straight on this. I'm Norwegian, and this is exactly what I would say about this. There are many things we do in Scandinavia that should be copied in the US, but start-up culture and small business is not helped along by the tax system and social services/benefits. In fact, the progressive taxation alone incentivizes everyone to _not_ earn more than about 100000 USD a year (if you work h…

Private financing for computer startups is nonexistent.

Really? I've never had problem with this. Nor have I felt the tax system has disincentivized my income (which is well into the top bracket.)

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#62

Post by GoogleMeElmo » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 9:35 PM UTC

dantheman wrote: post #57

GoogleMeElmo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This looks to me as more of an argument against democracy than anything else. Not sure how you intended it. Its definitely interesting. But what would we be if not for democracy or some other form of rule? Anarchy. I don't think that is what I want, at least. It would be back to Darwin and "Survival of the fittest".

Democracy in its pure sense is quite horrible, it's commonly referred to as mob rule. That is why modern democracies are constitutional democracies, the rule of the mob is limited so that minorities are protected. I do believe that his line of thinking exposes flaws in democracy - it's important to identify flaws in the system so that they can be addressed.

I completely agree on that point.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#63

Post by mindcrime » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 9:36 PM UTC

Bloody good on Norway. Now if you want Norwegian taxes or the Norwegian government, move to Norway. I'll take the American moral view on taxation, and fight taxation tooth-and-nail until I die, regardless of the pragmatics of it. It's about choice, and freedom, not the actual dollars and cents.

Come up with a scheme that moves functions currently executed by the government into a privately run, voluntary collective, and chances are I'd join it, participate, and pay as much as - or more than - I do now. But if you use the hammer of government force to mandate participation, I - for one - will never accept it as just.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#64

Post by gyardley » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 9:37 PM UTC

Of course Norway's way of doing things could work in the United States - if the typical American had the underlying culture, beliefs, and attitudes of the typical Norwegian.

Since they don't, and cultural change is the sort of thing that happens incrementally over a generation or more, there's no plan of action to be gained from such articles - they're valuable because they teach us a bit about other cultures, but trying to use them to make political points is silly.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#65

Post by gaius » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 9:41 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #63

Bloody good on Norway. Now if you want Norwegian taxes or the Norwegian government, move to Norway. I'll take the American moral view on taxation, and fight taxation tooth-and-nail until I die, regardless of the pragmatics of it. It's about choice, and freedom, not the actual dollars and cents. Come up with a scheme that moves functions currently executed by the government into a privately run, voluntary collective,…

Norwegian examples simply aren't applicable to the rest of the world. Here in the UK we are often compared to Norway, since we are both North Sea oil countries. Well, Norway makes 20x the oil revenue per head of the population than we do. That covers up a an awful lot. We don't have the luxury of economic inefficiencies that Norway can get away with.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#66

Post by nightlifelover » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 9:49 PM UTC

zdw wrote: post #7

If you have less to lose, you're more willing to take risks. Thus having the government take care of basic welfare and health care benefits frees people to be entrepreneurial, in a sense. Compare to the US, where people are tied to a job based on the benefits they have through that job, and before the health care legislation's removal of preexisting conditions clauses, if you had a medical condition and lost your job…

> If you have less to lose, you're more willing to take risks.

Completely disagree, social security has rather a negative on the willingness of the population to take risks. In countries with high social securities, such as Switzerland or Germany there are less startups founded on average. People instead are in a kind of security thinking and take the most safe jobs, get an insurance for everything, etc..

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#67

Post by laut » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 9:58 PM UTC

The title is an oxymoron. With socialism, you don't have private ownership of the means of production. Thus you cannot have start-ups with socialism.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#68

Post by krakensden » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 10:09 PM UTC

rick888 wrote: post #55

michael_dorfman wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as one who has started several start-ups in Norway, I'd say: there is still quite a bit to win, there is much less risk, and at the end of the day, we're not really in it for the money, are we?

"Speaking as one who has started several start-ups in Norway, I'd say: there is still quite a bit to win, there is much less risk, and at the end of the day, we're not really in it for the money, are we?" That last part makes me think that you aren't really making that much and justifying it by saying: "we're not really in it for the money, are we?". Everyone is in it for the money. Money means freedom. Freedom from…

> Those numbers look pitiful

Number one on that list is the 36th on the Fortune Global 500- probably not /that/ pitiful.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#69

Post by rick888 » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 10:25 PM UTC

michael_dorfman wrote: post #60

rick888 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Speaking as one who has started several start-ups in Norway, I'd say: there is still quite a bit to win, there is much less risk, and at the end of the day, we're not really in it for the money, are we?" That last part makes me think that you aren't really making that much and justifying it by saying: "we're not really in it for the money, are we?". Everyone is in it for the money. Money means freedom. Freedom from…

That last part makes me think that you aren't really making that much and justifying it by saying: "we're not really in it for the money, are we?". Bad guess. My first startup had a successful exit; I'm not at liberty to discuss the numbers, but let's just say that it was for a satisfying amount with the appropriate number of zeroes. Everyone is in it for the money. Money means freedom. Freedom from governments and y…

"Bad guess. My first startup had a successful exit; I'm not at liberty to discuss the numbers, but let's just say that it was for a satisfying amount with the appropriate number of zeroes."

ok. So why say "we all aren't in it for the money", when that is obviously not the case for you.

"I'm not purely in it for the money; I'm in it for the quality of life."

So you are interested in running a lifestyle business (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifestyle_business). You also cashed out early. However, what about the people that want to run long-term businesses to help the quality of life for others (by hiring employees and paying them a wage)?

"After a certain point, each additional dollar/kroner fails to significantly impact the quality of life."

Is this because of taxes? Even if it's not, you can't make that blanket statement for everyone. As a late 20s single guy, I would need a lot less than someone with a wife and kids. You can always use more money for something to improve the quality of your life. Your kids futures, relatives, non-profit organizations, retirement...the list goes on. I don't feel like the government should put limits on my potential success. If it's all sucked away by taxes and other government fees, your choice is gone.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#70

Post by anghyflawn » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 10:27 PM UTC

tsotha wrote: post #58

Norway would have a lot more trouble saying "ja" to socialism if it didn't have so much oil. That's what makes the whole thing seem like such a good deal - you're getting more than you're paying in.

Aw come on, Norway has oil and it is small, but was social-democratic long before any oil, and both Denmark and Sweden have built successful welfare safety nets without relying so much on a natural-resources windfall.