In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism • Hacker News Board

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#71

Post by stevenbedrick » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 10:44 PM UTC

rick888 wrote: post #55

michael_dorfman wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as one who has started several start-ups in Norway, I'd say: there is still quite a bit to win, there is much less risk, and at the end of the day, we're not really in it for the money, are we?

"Speaking as one who has started several start-ups in Norway, I'd say: there is still quite a bit to win, there is much less risk, and at the end of the day, we're not really in it for the money, are we?" That last part makes me think that you aren't really making that much and justifying it by saying: "we're not really in it for the money, are we?". Everyone is in it for the money. Money means freedom. Freedom from…

> Everyone is in it for the money. Money means freedom. Freedom from governments and your boss.

No, everybody is not "in it for the money". You said it yourself, actually: most people are in it for the things that money allows them to do. That is a very important difference, and it's one that a lot of people forget about.

Here in the US, a lot of the things from which we'd like to be "free" from (living in fear of health care-related bankruptcy, having to beg a boss for an extra week of vacation, being limited to absurdly short and unpaid (ma|pa)ternity leave periods, etc.) come with a hefty price tag, and as such are associated with (and often thought of as proxies for) having a lot of money.

In a place like Norway, many of the things that that we Americans see as perks afforded to only the wealthiest of individuals are instead thought of as baseline facts of life.

Is it so surprising, then, that people whose world-views are shaped by such a system don't have the same difficulties at disentangling financial cause and effect that we Americans have? They say that "past a certain point, money's just a way of keeping score," and it sounds to me as though that point is a lot lower in a place like Norway than it is here in the US.

As an experiment, let's try formulating it (semi)-logically (it's been a while since I had logic, so if I'm getting this wrong, please let me know):

    if (has lots of money) -> (freedom from financial catastrophe, and lots of social perks)

In the US, the inverse is true:

    not (has lots of money) -> not (freedom from financial catastrophe, lots of social perks, etc.)

Because of how our system is set up, the converse is also typically true:

    if (freedom from financial catastrophe, lots of social perks) -> (has lots of money)

This leads us to conclude that there's an inevitable relationship between having lots of money and having the freedom that you talk about.

In Norway, however, the system is different, and it doesn't sound like the aforementioned inverse relationship between money and freedom is true: since you can have the freedom from healthcare-related financial catastrophe, a decent vacation policy, educational benefits, etc. all without having tons of money. Since there are different "givens", it's not surprising that Norwegians have arrived at different conclusions and attitudes towards money. QED?

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#72

Post by Norse » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 10:56 PM UTC

nightlifelover wrote: post #66

zdw wrote: post #7

If you have less to lose, you're more willing to take risks. Thus having the government take care of basic welfare and health care benefits frees people to be entrepreneurial, in a sense. Compare to the US, where people are tied to a job based on the benefits they have through that job, and before the health care legislation's removal of preexisting conditions clauses, if you had a medical condition and lost your job…

> If you have less to lose, you're more willing to take risks. Completely disagree, social security has rather a negative on the willingness of the population to take risks. In countries with high social securities, such as Switzerland or Germany there are less startups founded on average. People instead are in a kind of security thinking and take the most safe jobs, get an insurance for everything, etc..

Did you miss the bit of the article where it wsas pointed out that those countries have the highest number of startups in the world? Not "less on average" but "the most".

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#73

Post by brc » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 10:58 PM UTC

tallanvor wrote: post #21

cromulent wrote: post #16

Norway is not a socialist country. Social democracy != socialism.

It's all in how you define a term, but traditionally Norway is a very socialist country - The major businesses were owned by the state, and while that has changed, the government does still hold large stakes in telecom, oil, and transportation companies. Private businesses also generally have a much flatter hierarchy than you find in the US, and income distribution is much more equally. And, of course, the member par…

You're free to leave Norway whenever you like. You can own private property in Norway, and grow your business and keep at least half the profits. Socialist countries have state ownership, no private property, restrictions on freedoms.

Norway is a social democracy. At any point the government could be voted out and replaced with one that changes all the laws. It's not a socialist country.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#74

Post by ThomPete » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 10:58 PM UTC

zdw wrote: post #7

If you have less to lose, you're more willing to take risks. Thus having the government take care of basic welfare and health care benefits frees people to be entrepreneurial, in a sense. Compare to the US, where people are tied to a job based on the benefits they have through that job, and before the health care legislation's removal of preexisting conditions clauses, if you had a medical condition and lost your job…

This isn't true if you look to the Scandinavian countries.

Because you have less to loose you don't aspire as much thus you don't take risk.

Furthermore it's much more expensive to fail in Scandinavia for those who venture into actually risking.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#75

Post by Norse » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 11:01 PM UTC

rick888 wrote: post #55

michael_dorfman wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as one who has started several start-ups in Norway, I'd say: there is still quite a bit to win, there is much less risk, and at the end of the day, we're not really in it for the money, are we?

"Speaking as one who has started several start-ups in Norway, I'd say: there is still quite a bit to win, there is much less risk, and at the end of the day, we're not really in it for the money, are we?" That last part makes me think that you aren't really making that much and justifying it by saying: "we're not really in it for the money, are we?". Everyone is in it for the money. Money means freedom. Freedom from…

If you're in it for the money, you won't succeed. That is for certain.

If money motivates you, become a day trader, hedge fund manager, bank executive. Work with money. At the kind of shear stress you get at these levels, you need the edge that comes from doing something you want. Just trudging in day after day for the money just won't cut it.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#76

Post by brc » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 11:02 PM UTC

One swallow does not make a summer, and one happy entrepreneur does not equal a system which produces a lot of new companies.

Norway is a nice place and the culture and beliefs of the people mean that they have decided as a country to opt for a high social safety net and associated high taxes.

But trying to extract a hypothesis that somehow high taxes and social safety nets are somehow good for starting up a business is, well, stretching it somewhat.

Perhaps one of the reasons this guy found success is that so many of his countrymen can't be bothered because the extra effort isn't worth it. He clearly is motivated by more than money, so high taxation doesn't affect him much. So you could say Norways taxation system encourages people to build family style companies, and only suits entrepreneurs who aren't money-driven. That's an equally valid conclusion to draw from the article if you ask me.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#77

Post by Norse » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 11:09 PM UTC

tsotha wrote: post #58

Norway would have a lot more trouble saying "ja" to socialism if it didn't have so much oil. That's what makes the whole thing seem like such a good deal - you're getting more than you're paying in.

Norway saves all it oil in a sovereign wealth fund. The only difference "no oil" would make would be a less stuffed bank account.

Much like the case is with Sweden, Denmark, Finland...who run the same system without oil, and gets similar results.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#78

Post by Norse » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 11:11 PM UTC

roschdal wrote: post #47

Norway is successful because of the oil and gas resources here. This makes the economy boom, and is why the welfare state and social democracy works so well. I still think the US has a far more competitive start-up environment. I'm from Norway, by the way.

Norway saves the oil income in an oil fund. The rest of Scandinavia gets the same results with no oil.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#79

Post by Norse » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 11:17 PM UTC

dantheman wrote: post #34

beoba wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not forget that if it was such a bad deal, they could vote to change things. When's the last time a "slave", using your words, had a vote? But it takes more than perks to keep a worker motivated in Norway. In a country with low unemployment and generous unemployment benefits, a worker's threat to quit is more credible than it is in the United States, giving workers more leverage over employers. [...] "You can't…

Because a minority loses out in a democracy, they can either adapt and accept the situation or struggle to change it. Often times it's easier to just change ones own position than to actually do something, that most likely will not succeed and if it does provides limited benefit - the ROI isn't worth it. For example, I think the taxes are too high: 1. I can complain all the time, and be miserable. 2. I can work to ch…

5. You can opt out, and live in the wilderness, not being a part of the economic system, and paying no taxes.

6. You can stop working, and live on the mimimum amount you get off other peoples taxes.

7. You can move to a country with lower taxes.

If all these freedoms seem to much work to you, the only person enslaving you is you.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#80

Post by Norse » Sun, Jan 30, 2011, 11:25 PM UTC

relic17 wrote: post #33

The article implies that most people in Norway believe that individual rights are less important than the average welfare of all individuals taken together and that personal lives are less important than the well-being of the collective. This is quite logical, because it is the acceptance of this view of the world that makes their system possible. A similar view is at the root of most governments around the world tod…

Doctors are an extremly well-educated, mobile workforce. Few chose to leave the country, there are more coming in.

There is more happiness in being well-off in a rich country, than being rich in a poor or troubled one.

Especially if you have a family.

People don't measure themselves against the superrich of other countries anyway. A doctor in Norway has a high-status job and among the best wages in the country. Changing from being in the top in a rich country to being somewhat further from the top in a more trobled one is not a winning proposition. Even if it does mean more number in the bank.

Also, it is undeniable that there are more freedom under the Norwegian system than the US one. Health care, vacation time, education, personal development....I cannot imagine what freedoms the US could measure up in.