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The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

macworld.com

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Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#81

Post by [deleted] »

kayoone wrote: post #9
sudhirj wrote: post #3

Certainly seems that way, but it's discouraging that Ive and Apple had to part ways just for Apple to get back on track. Very much a case of either dying a hero or living long enough to become the villian. I use this as a reminder not to drink my own kool aid. Even if I'm being recognized at being good at something, it's not an excuse to double down on it and push it too hard. No one is applauded for being judiciousl…

> I use this as a reminder not to drink my own kool aid. Even if I'm being recognized at being good at something, it's not an excuse to double down on it and push it too hard. No one is applauded for being judiciously balanced. But for a lot of things it can be positive if recognition motivates you to do more. Like can you ever be too good of an athlete? Too good of a programmer?

[deleted]

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#82

Post by ufmace »

kayoone wrote: post #9
sudhirj wrote: post #3

Certainly seems that way, but it's discouraging that Ive and Apple had to part ways just for Apple to get back on track. Very much a case of either dying a hero or living long enough to become the villian. I use this as a reminder not to drink my own kool aid. Even if I'm being recognized at being good at something, it's not an excuse to double down on it and push it too hard. No one is applauded for being judiciousl…

> I use this as a reminder not to drink my own kool aid. Even if I'm being recognized at being good at something, it's not an excuse to double down on it and push it too hard. No one is applauded for being judiciously balanced. But for a lot of things it can be positive if recognition motivates you to do more. Like can you ever be too good of an athlete? Too good of a programmer?

I'm not sure if there even is any universal measure for how good of a programmer you are. There's probably someone who's really good at optimizing the hell out of a really hot loop that absolutely has to be faster, never mind if the code is comprehensible to mere mortals. And somebody who can design and architect a huge, complex enterprise program well enough that a newbie developer can quickly get an idea of what's going on and make contributions. And somebody who can inherit a huge ball of mud and gradually refactor it into something more reasonable while keeping it working the whole time. And somebody who can start a new project and build just the right amount of infrastructure into it at the right time - not so much that you've got some huge over-designed thing for a product with 2 users, and not so little that it becomes impossible to scale when you hit 10k users. And plenty more sub-field besides those.

It's easy to be really great at 1 or 2 of those, and not so good at the others.

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#83

Post by pier25 »

big_chungus wrote: post #37
metalliqaz wrote: post #30

I'm dense. How does "Always strive for the next version of your product to be thinner and lighter than the current one." become "Ive Doctrine"?

He famously pushed it at the expense of good engineering, reliability, build quality, battery life, performance, and all the other things people want in a device. Apple over-indulged him.

This is the common narrative, but is there any source confirming this?

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#84

Post by [deleted] »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #54
thefounder wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> also moving into the right direction. They are heavier, slightly thicker and have better battery life. The worst thing about the latest iphones(10, pro) is that they got heavier. I find it so bad that I skipped the upgrade(s) because of that.

How much heavier than your current phone were they? (I'm not suggesting anyone updates, just curious how much weight caused this to be the primary decision point.)

[deleted]

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#85

Post by closetohome »

thefounder wrote: post #68
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much heavier than your current phone were they? (I'm not suggesting anyone updates, just curious how much weight caused this to be the primary decision point.)

Heavier to the point that I experience pain handling it for long periods of times especially if I have to use one hand only. Shortly said the weight makes it uncomfortable to use. A clear example where "syle"/fashion is valued more than usuability.

How is it fashionable for the phone to be heavier?

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#86

Post by sanysany »

mberning wrote: post #38

The iPhone 11 Pro was the first indication. Physically bigger, heavier, and with a larger battery than the outgoing model. I am very pleased to see them finally making a commitment to their "Pro" lines. A lot more could be done, and based on what we have seen, hopefully it will be.

I feel like press talk they had in 2017 when they announced they were working on a Mac Pro was an early indication that things would change, and now in 2019 is when we are actually seeing the fruits of that change.

On the Mac side we've gotten the Mac Pro, Mac mini, and the new thicker 16-inch MacBook Pro (although it still is stuck on just 4 USB-C!!).

On the iOS side we've gotten the iPhone XR first, then the 11, and 11 Pro all being thicker than the phones they replaced.

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#87

Post by sanysany »

gonational wrote: post #71
baybal2 wrote: post #32

> ...the Ive Doctrine: Always strive for the next version of your product to be thinner and lighter than the current one. I'd say it follows a rule of "every sequel to a hit movie is worse than original" more. I worked in OEM electronics since 2007, and I saw this happening all and every time with big public companies. In the industry, we have a term for that. We call it "Brand Fade" It is near impossible for a big c…

Exceptions to that rule are as follows: - Terminator 2: Judgement Day - Aliens - Back to the Future Part 2

Or Empire Strikes Back, Godfather Part II, and plenty of other movies.

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#88

Post by brokenmachine »

725686 wrote: post #47
nextos wrote: post #7

I think Ive needed Jobs to provide some user feedback he would listen to ahead of product release. Without Jobs, it's taken Apple years to get keyboards back on track. Which is absurd given that their desktop keyboard is really good. I haven't bought any Apple products for years, except for their peripherals. Their touchpad is excellent, and there's no other alternative in the market I know of that works decently in…

"Which is absurd given that their desktop keyboard is really good." I guess that is pretty subjective. I for one, hate Apple desktop keyboards. Not only the feel of it, but the layout (in my country) is different than the PC keyboards which drives me nuts.

Definitely subjective.

I find chiclet keyboards absolutely horrible, and Apple has been the pioneer of that horrible type of keyboard.

The keys are terrible mushy little islands.

Mechanical keyboards are just SO much better.

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#89

Post by GhettoMaestro »

gonational wrote: post #71
baybal2 wrote: post #32

> ...the Ive Doctrine: Always strive for the next version of your product to be thinner and lighter than the current one. I'd say it follows a rule of "every sequel to a hit movie is worse than original" more. I worked in OEM electronics since 2007, and I saw this happening all and every time with big public companies. In the industry, we have a term for that. We call it "Brand Fade" It is near impossible for a big c…

Exceptions to that rule are as follows: - Terminator 2: Judgement Day - Aliens - Back to the Future Part 2

Quite possibly the three best movies of my childhood.

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#90

Post by andrewflnr »

jakobmi wrote: post #24
nextos wrote: post #7

I think Ive needed Jobs to provide some user feedback he would listen to ahead of product release. Without Jobs, it's taken Apple years to get keyboards back on track. Which is absurd given that their desktop keyboard is really good. I haven't bought any Apple products for years, except for their peripherals. Their touchpad is excellent, and there's no other alternative in the market I know of that works decently in…

An even better idea: listen to CUSTOMERS

Except most customers are stupid, so you have to be careful with that, too. If you accept customer input uncritically you get design by the biggest possible committee.

There is not nor will there every be a substitute for good judgment.

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