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The Editable PDF Initiative

editablepdf.org

141–150 of 162 posts

Re: The Editable PDF Initiative

#141
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's read-only in the same sense as a jpeg or an mp3 are read-only — it's a format designed for publishing, rather than editing, data.

When you print a word document to PDF the actual text, placement, and fonts are all embedded in the pdf. It may have been designed for publishing, but it's pretty simple to edit text in it.

Editing stops being simple when you have to deal with reflows and boundaries. In general it doesn't really work, at least not for any complex documents.

Re: The Editable PDF Initiative

#142
post #113

PDF is a publishing, rather than an editing format. It belongs in the same bucket as .mp3 and .jpg, rather than the .doc and .psd bucket. This is not about how easy or how hard it is to modify a pdf, it's about the intended purpose. The fact that it's meant for publishing means we get to optimise it as such, both in terms of simplicity of the format itself, and in terms of the tools that interact with it. This makes…

Exactly. PDF is digital paper. The "print to PDF" metaphor is perfect. If you've printed something and decide you want to change it, you don't grab white out, you open the source file up and change it then print again.

If editing PDFs is something you find yourself needing to do regularly, something is very wrong with the process that's leading to this. It may not be your fault, it may be an upstream party who should be providing you with the source material, but either way making PDFs easier to edit is not the correct solution.

Re: The Editable PDF Initiative

#143
post #60

The PDF file format is anachronous. When the format was created, computers only had a few KBs of RAM. Yet the format should be capable of editing documents with thousand of pages. The format solves this issue by delegating the memory management to the user. Also, the file was made with the assumption it was suppose to be printed, not shared. It is easier to hide parts of the document instead of removing the data. A f…

> When the format was created, computers only had a few KBs of RAM. Yet the format should be capable of editing documents with thousand of pages. The format solves this issue by delegating the memory management to the user. That's a good decision. Make the file format versatile and powerful. Don't constrain it by the limitations of contemporary hardware. > Also, the file was made with the assumption it was supposed t…

Given the constraints of the time when the format was conceived, the pdf format has a great design. I think, embedded designers should have a quick look on the PDF format to learn some tricks on how reduce unneeded memory accesses -- it basically implement a directory inside a file.

With the entry removal example, I was trying to show the format was not meant not to be shared. I know it is possible to remove data in other ways, and that probably every modern editor removes the data correctly. But it was not how the format itself deals with it. Of course, hiding entries with the flag had others uses such only print only the pages you currently working on without having to rescan the whole file.

I agree most devs don't have interest in learning how to do typesetting. But also, typesetting is quite complex by itself, specially when dealing with non western language. Luckily, projects such Harfbuzz (nowadays, hb is used even my emacs) makes it a lot easier.

Like I said in my original post, the format is anachronous. I don't think the format is intrinsically bad, I just think the format is not right for your time. I think we can do better nowadays.

PS: I've been thinking, it would be pretty cool to talk with the engineering team that worked on the first spec, and actually know what they were thinking back them and what they would change in it nowadays.

Re: The Editable PDF Initiative

#144
post #90

The PDF file format is anachronous. When the format was created, computers only had a few KBs of RAM. Yet the format should be capable of editing documents with thousand of pages. The format solves this issue by delegating the memory management to the user. Also, the file was made with the assumption it was suppose to be printed, not shared. It is easier to hide parts of the document instead of removing the data. A f…

> computers only had a few KBs of RAM. I don't think this is right. Postscript maybe ... but PDF in my experience came about in the 90s, when computers typically had between 4 and 16MB of RAM ...

You are probably right. But my point still stand, the format was made to deal with files much larger then the memory.

Re: The Editable PDF Initiative

#145
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't about security, it's about making sure that a text document is formatted exactly the same on all devices, whether it's a PC, a phone or a printer. The PDF file is reliable in that aspect while other widely used document formats like .doc and .docx are basically a gamble, even if you open the document on the same machine with the same software. The same with presentations: You just need to open the file in…

By your argument, PDF fails. I can provide examples of PDFs that look different on different devices.

PDF gives you all the tools to make sure that doesn't happen. No one prevents you from shooting yourself in the foot by writing a bad PDF that doesn't adhere to common good practices. For example it is technically possible to make a PDF with text without embedding fonts. Doing that is a bad idea.

By your argument, any programming language, no much how safe it purports to be, fails because they allow you to write bugs.

Re: The Editable PDF Initiative

#146
post #107

I prefer my PDF static, my meticulously edited LaTeX would be ruined by sticky fingers. However, something I much would like is better copy to clipboard from PDF. Non trivial input with tables and line breaks turns in to indecipherable alphabet soup...

Check out https://www.ctan.org/pkg/accsupp which may be helpful. I've only used it a handful of times on small amounts of text though.

Re: The Editable PDF Initiative

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t the main problem with XPS just software support, though?

That's huge though, you need to know you will be able to open your documents in a decade or more.

I don’t understand your position at all.

If you want to open your documents in a decade or more, redesigning a “cleaner” PDF would only make that less likely. If you want something cleaner than PDF, then XPS is already here. I don’t understand what scenario we’d have where designing a completely new format would give us better software support. So, the reason I’d see for designing a new format is if neither XPS nor PDF are good enough for some application.

Re: The Editable PDF Initiative

#148
I think this effort is misguided, they are attempting to take something that has a specific purpose and does it well, and subvert it into something that other applications and formats do well.

Pdf's aren't promoted as a portable editable format, but a portable, sharable, and archival format.

Why promote PDF over ODF? Is the issues of document reflow, of an editable document such an issue that they need to develop a new set of tools, and change the structure of PDF to resolve the issue, if that is the case, it seems they could contribute to resolving the issue in ODF?

Re: The Editable PDF Initiative

#149
post #113

PDF is a publishing, rather than an editing format. It belongs in the same bucket as .mp3 and .jpg, rather than the .doc and .psd bucket. This is not about how easy or how hard it is to modify a pdf, it's about the intended purpose. The fact that it's meant for publishing means we get to optimise it as such, both in terms of simplicity of the format itself, and in terms of the tools that interact with it. This makes…

Agreed, and I prefer the LibreOffice approach to embed the original file within the PDF if the author decides to.

This doesn't break the simplicity of the PDF, while making it easy to edit.

Re: The Editable PDF Initiative

#150

I'm going to add an unsolicited plug for PDFEscape, which effectively lets you "edit" any PDF: https://www.pdfescape.com/ It's an online service that lets you upload PDFs, then edit fields, add text, upload and paste images like your signature, etc. Perfect for filling out tedious paper application forms without having to deal with printing & scanning. I have no connection other than as a satisfied user, and in fact…

I use Master PDF Editor (https://code-industry.net/masterpdfeditor/). It's not free, but it's not terribly expensive either and you can probably get it expensed depending on your job.

It also does PDF editing perfectly. I really hope there will be some open source version of it at some point. Or that someone's working on one.

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