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In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

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Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#51

Post by GoogleMeElmo »

dantheman wrote: post #34
beoba wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not forget that if it was such a bad deal, they could vote to change things. When's the last time a "slave", using your words, had a vote? But it takes more than perks to keep a worker motivated in Norway. In a country with low unemployment and generous unemployment benefits, a worker's threat to quit is more credible than it is in the United States, giving workers more leverage over employers. [...] "You can't…

Because a minority loses out in a democracy, they can either adapt and accept the situation or struggle to change it. Often times it's easier to just change ones own position than to actually do something, that most likely will not succeed and if it does provides limited benefit - the ROI isn't worth it. For example, I think the taxes are too high: 1. I can complain all the time, and be miserable. 2. I can work to ch…

This looks to me as more of an argument against democracy than anything else. Not sure how you intended it. Its definitely interesting. But what would we be if not for democracy or some other form of rule? Anarchy. I don't think that is what I want, at least. It would be back to Darwin and "Survival of the fittest".

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#52

Post by smokey_the_bear »

uuilly wrote: post #48
zdw wrote: post #7

If you have less to lose, you're more willing to take risks. Thus having the government take care of basic welfare and health care benefits frees people to be entrepreneurial, in a sense. Compare to the US, where people are tied to a job based on the benefits they have through that job, and before the health care legislation's removal of preexisting conditions clauses, if you had a medical condition and lost your job…

I paid $60 a month for catastrophic healthcare from State Farm when I ran a ramen profitable startup. My deductible was $1500. When I nearly cut my toe off walking on a beach, I had surgery, $1000 worth of antibiotics and two follow up visits. I paid a grand total of $1500 for everything. I know I'm a healthy young man, but that seemed like a pretty fair deal to me. Amazingly this plan will soon become illegal for be…

I know your point was specifically about young men, but this is one of the things that keeps women from doing startups. I'm young, healthy, female, and doing a startup, but one of my major concerns was finding a health care plan that would eventually cover maternity. Prior to the health reform law, if I'd developed any kind of condition I wouldn't have been able to switch plans, and even if I did, they often don't cover maternity for the first year.

I could afford to pay the costs of a normal birth, but my nephew's cost $300,000.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#53

Post by marvin »

ThomPete wrote: post #32

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Norway don't say yes to socialism they say yes to social welfare in a different way than in the US. So do Denmark (where I am from) and Sweden. Yes the taxes are higher (up to 60% in Denmark with a progressive tax system) and about the same I believe in Norway. But it's not like everyone walks around an love it. In fact there is great opposition to the level that taxation have g…

Thanks for setting the record straight on this. I'm Norwegian, and this is exactly what I would say about this. There are many things we do in Scandinavia that should be copied in the US, but start-up culture and small business is not helped along by the tax system and social services/benefits. In fact, the progressive taxation alone incentivizes everyone to _not_ earn more than about 100000 USD a year (if you work harder to earn more, taxation is about 45% on the marginal income).

There are "official" (state-sponsored) investment companies, but they are incredibly risk-averse and never invest in anything halfway radical. Private financing for computer startups is nonexistent.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#54

Post by jarek »

relic17 wrote: post #33

The article implies that most people in Norway believe that individual rights are less important than the average welfare of all individuals taken together and that personal lives are less important than the well-being of the collective. This is quite logical, because it is the acceptance of this view of the world that makes their system possible. A similar view is at the root of most governments around the world tod…

You're getting into interesting ground here with questioning happiness. How is happiness defined? Can you truly distinguish between someone who is happy on their own and someone who is happy because their society tells them they should be? Does any happiness not stem from generations of people shaping perceptions of what individuals in their society should feel happy about?

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#55

Post by rick888 »

michael_dorfman wrote: post #15
bobo99 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you have less to win, why should you take risks anyway?

Speaking as one who has started several start-ups in Norway, I'd say: there is still quite a bit to win, there is much less risk, and at the end of the day, we're not really in it for the money, are we?

"Speaking as one who has started several start-ups in Norway, I'd say: there is still quite a bit to win, there is much less risk, and at the end of the day, we're not really in it for the money, are we?"

That last part makes me think that you aren't really making that much and justifying it by saying: "we're not really in it for the money, are we?".

Everyone is in it for the money. Money means freedom. Freedom from governments and your boss. If you aren't in it for the money, start a non-profit.

Here is a list of the largest 500 companies in Norway (with gross and net revenue):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_companies_o...

Those numbers look pitiful (I'm not sure what the actual dollar amounts are, but I'm just comparing them based on percentages). Having health insurance to fall back on does help with starting a company. But once you get the company established, the amount of taxes you will be required to pay for employees and other things will outweigh any benefits you received initially.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#56

Post by rick888 »

_delirium wrote: post #49
uuilly wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I paid $60 a month for catastrophic healthcare from State Farm when I ran a ramen profitable startup. My deductible was $1500. When I nearly cut my toe off walking on a beach, I had surgery, $1000 worth of antibiotics and two follow up visits. I paid a grand total of $1500 for everything. I know I'm a healthy young man, but that seemed like a pretty fair deal to me. Amazingly this plan will soon become illegal for be…

> But entrepreneurs are mostly healthy young men Could this be at least in part a self-fulfilling prophecy? Due to the way healthcare is set up in the U.S., the only people who really can consider quitting their jobs, and losing their group-health plan as a result, are: 1) people who are already rich (or have rich family); and 2) healthy young men. edit: Actually, I suppose people over 65 also can, due to the U.S.'s…

"Could this be at least in part a self-fulfilling prophecy? Due to the way healthcare is set up in the U.S., the only people who really can consider quitting their jobs, and losing their group-health plan as a result, are: 1) people who are already rich (or have rich family); and 2) healthy young men"

Health care is a small part of it. The other part is that once you have a stable income and a family (wife+kids), most people don't want to take the risk of losing that income because the risk will have lasting effects on their entire family. When you are young and have no dependents, you can take this risk.

This is why you should get your company started first..and then settle down with a wife+kids.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#57

Post by dantheman »

GoogleMeElmo wrote: post #51
dantheman wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because a minority loses out in a democracy, they can either adapt and accept the situation or struggle to change it. Often times it's easier to just change ones own position than to actually do something, that most likely will not succeed and if it does provides limited benefit - the ROI isn't worth it. For example, I think the taxes are too high: 1. I can complain all the time, and be miserable. 2. I can work to ch…

This looks to me as more of an argument against democracy than anything else. Not sure how you intended it. Its definitely interesting. But what would we be if not for democracy or some other form of rule? Anarchy. I don't think that is what I want, at least. It would be back to Darwin and "Survival of the fittest".

Democracy in its pure sense is quite horrible, it's commonly referred to as mob rule. That is why modern democracies are constitutional democracies, the rule of the mob is limited so that minorities are protected.

I do believe that his line of thinking exposes flaws in democracy - it's important to identify flaws in the system so that they can be addressed.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#59

Post by orangecat »

michael_dorfman wrote: post #31
borism wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wow, what an irresponsible proposal. corporations already have free speech, now they need to get government paid healthcare also? why should US taxpayers reimburse those entrepreneur's health care costs if most of them will fail to produce any jobs at all? looks like a great way to create even more moral hazard in US companies. health care of work force should be shared between employers and society as a whole, not o…

The Norwegian solution-- actually, come to think of it, the rest-of-the-world-outside-the-US solution-- is to break the linkage between health care and employment altogether, thus eliminating the moral hazard, and guaranteeing adequate health care for all. In terms of the present discussion, it is easier for entrepreneurs to commit to a start-up if there is no fear of losing health-care coverage. That's a big win, if…

break the linkage between health care and employment altogether

Policy wonks on the left and right have been shouting this from the rooftops for decades, but to no effect. The problem is that any incremental change in that direction is instantly demagogued as "taking away your existing coverage".

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#60

Post by michael_dorfman »

rick888 wrote: post #55
michael_dorfman wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as one who has started several start-ups in Norway, I'd say: there is still quite a bit to win, there is much less risk, and at the end of the day, we're not really in it for the money, are we?

"Speaking as one who has started several start-ups in Norway, I'd say: there is still quite a bit to win, there is much less risk, and at the end of the day, we're not really in it for the money, are we?" That last part makes me think that you aren't really making that much and justifying it by saying: "we're not really in it for the money, are we?". Everyone is in it for the money. Money means freedom. Freedom from…

That last part makes me think that you aren't really making that much and justifying it by saying: "we're not really in it for the money, are we?".

Bad guess. My first startup had a successful exit; I'm not at liberty to discuss the numbers, but let's just say that it was for a satisfying amount with the appropriate number of zeroes.

Everyone is in it for the money. Money means freedom. Freedom from governments and your boss. If you aren't in it for the money, start a non-profit.

I'm not purely in it for the money; I'm in it for the quality of life. After a certain point, each additional dollar/kroner fails to significantly impact the quality of life. Similarly, there are plenty of things I absolutely won't do for money.

Having health insurance to fall back on does help with starting a company. But once you get the company established, the amount of taxes you will be required to pay for employees and other things will outweigh any benefits you received initially.

Again, wrong. I also received some very generous innovation grants from the Norwegian government. The benefits were plentiful.

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