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In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

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Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#41

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Norway don't say yes to socialism they say yes to social welfare in a different way than in the US. So do Denmark (where I am from) and Sweden. Yes the taxes are higher (up to 60% in Denmark with a progressive tax system) and about the same I believe in Norway. But it's not like everyone walks around an love it. In fact there is great opposition to the level that taxation have g…

I concur–the US has a big market and a big advantage culturally in terms of startups.

Switzerland has the opposite problem, people are very ambitious, expect to earn a lot of money, and so are unwilling to take the pay cut to go to startups. I have run into many who think creating a successful startup involves having an idea and throwing money at outsourcers to program it. There's so much money thrown around that the idea of a MVP is out the window, a few companies I know have runways of 6+ years....

It's also partly about catching the bug and reaching the critical mass. If you have many friends making amazing things it's hard not to be inspired to try to join in. I don't think the cultural problem is by any means inherent in socialism, but those are just my 50 kroner...

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, come on, I hear it all the time. Generally they're either Americans or support the FrP (the so-called "Progress Party").

Must be different social circles. I don't know any FrP types, but I do know some other Americans, and I've yet to hear any complain.

Probably, especially considering I'm fairly sure we've never met. :)

Don't get me wrong, the Americans I talk to regularly (and work with) aren't complaining about this, but if you get enough foreigners in a room together, there always seem to be a few who like to complain about taxes.

As for the FrP, the ones I know tend to be younger, and while they don't mind complaining about taxes, the real reason they tend towards the FrP is racism, even when they'd rather not admit it.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all in how you define a term, but traditionally Norway is a very socialist country - The major businesses were owned by the state, and while that has changed, the government does still hold large stakes in telecom, oil, and transportation companies. Private businesses also generally have a much flatter hierarchy than you find in the US, and income distribution is much more equally. And, of course, the member par…

Of course you can slice the definitions in different ways, but the common definition is that the capitalist ideal of all means of production being in private hands and socialism is the opposite of that - they are all in public hands. Norway is a mixed economy. I think that the USA and Norway are not at the poles of that continuum but much more close together, especially given the Fed's recent acquisitions.

Actually, I think the way the US and Norway handled the crisis helps to show how different they are.

Norway stepped in much more quickly, even though the risk was much less compared to the US (Norway had already placed stricter controls on banks due to the crisis they had in the late 80's and early 90's). While the Fed did step in in the US, they were more concerned with pumping in money rather than trying to fix the underlying cause of the trouble - because, after all, telling the banks what to do would be "socialism", which is why there is still so much uncertainty in the US right now.

Obviously not everything in Norway is perfect, but taking everything into account - the 3.1% unemployment rate just one example - I certainly have no desire to move back to the US anytime soon.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#44
post #9
post #7

If you have less to lose, you're more willing to take risks. Thus having the government take care of basic welfare and health care benefits frees people to be entrepreneurial, in a sense. Compare to the US, where people are tied to a job based on the benefits they have through that job, and before the health care legislation's removal of preexisting conditions clauses, if you had a medical condition and lost your job…

But if you have less to win, why should you take risks anyway?

I suppose we should have a flat tax also?

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#45
post #33

The article implies that most people in Norway believe that individual rights are less important than the average welfare of all individuals taken together and that personal lives are less important than the well-being of the collective. This is quite logical, because it is the acceptance of this view of the world that makes their system possible. A similar view is at the root of most governments around the world tod…

A bit of anecdotal evidence from a Norwegian citizen to counter your "doctor vs janitor" argument: I'm more than well aquainted with a doctor and she is more than happy to pay her taxes, in order to benefit the rest of society.

You should also know that even though the tax system in Norway works to even the footing of different posed people financially, it does not wipe out the class difference between a janitor and a doctor. Their net income will still differ by quite a bit (up to 400% at least).

The benefit here is that someone who is considered poor, and would perhaps be forced to live in the street, and only serve to increase the crime rate, will instead recieve help. And the doctor can sleep peacefully at night knowing that the police is out protecting. The hospital emergency staff is ready to recieve the next cardiac arrest patient, the road will be cleared from that heavy snow fall during the night, the list goes on.

In my view the philosophy of the Norwegian tax models is less worries == more happiness, and that is exactly what this model offers for everyone included.

On the other hand its very easy to paint a rosy picture of Norway in a case like this. Mostly becasue US is so easy to outcompete on many of the issues directly involved. Crime rates, mortality rates, helthcare and so on. Norway does of course, like any country, suffer from several political problems. Spending, immigration and government control is perhaps the most fleeting issues right now. But they diminish substantially compared to the issues the US has to face the next decade. And perhaps even worse is it, that the political environment in the US seems allmost hopeless. With the country polarized into two extremes. In Norway the debate is still very much alive around all of these issues. In the US you can quickly get yourself into a place you dont want to be by just shifting your perspective slightly.

Ok now i gotta stop. Let the bashing commence. :P

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#47
Norway is successful because of the oil and gas resources here. This makes the economy boom, and is why the welfare state and social democracy works so well. I still think the US has a far more competitive start-up environment. I'm from Norway, by the way.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#48
post #7

If you have less to lose, you're more willing to take risks. Thus having the government take care of basic welfare and health care benefits frees people to be entrepreneurial, in a sense. Compare to the US, where people are tied to a job based on the benefits they have through that job, and before the health care legislation's removal of preexisting conditions clauses, if you had a medical condition and lost your job…

I paid $60 a month for catastrophic healthcare from State Farm when I ran a ramen profitable startup. My deductible was $1500. When I nearly cut my toe off walking on a beach, I had surgery, $1000 worth of antibiotics and two follow up visits. I paid a grand total of $1500 for everything. I know I'm a healthy young man, but that seemed like a pretty fair deal to me.

Amazingly this plan will soon become illegal for being too minimalist under the new healthcare laws. I get that there are real problems with healthcare in the US. But entrepreneurs are mostly healthy young men, and it doesn't cost much to insure healthy young men.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#49
post #48
post #7

If you have less to lose, you're more willing to take risks. Thus having the government take care of basic welfare and health care benefits frees people to be entrepreneurial, in a sense. Compare to the US, where people are tied to a job based on the benefits they have through that job, and before the health care legislation's removal of preexisting conditions clauses, if you had a medical condition and lost your job…

I paid $60 a month for catastrophic healthcare from State Farm when I ran a ramen profitable startup. My deductible was $1500. When I nearly cut my toe off walking on a beach, I had surgery, $1000 worth of antibiotics and two follow up visits. I paid a grand total of $1500 for everything. I know I'm a healthy young man, but that seemed like a pretty fair deal to me. Amazingly this plan will soon become illegal for be…

> But entrepreneurs are mostly healthy young men

Could this be at least in part a self-fulfilling prophecy? Due to the way healthcare is set up in the U.S., the only people who really can consider quitting their jobs, and losing their group-health plan as a result, are: 1) people who are already rich (or have rich family); and 2) healthy young men.

edit: Actually, I suppose people over 65 also can, due to the U.S.'s strange age-based national health system. But people over 65 tend not to be likely startup candidates for other reasons.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#50
post #7

If you have less to lose, you're more willing to take risks. Thus having the government take care of basic welfare and health care benefits frees people to be entrepreneurial, in a sense. Compare to the US, where people are tied to a job based on the benefits they have through that job, and before the health care legislation's removal of preexisting conditions clauses, if you had a medical condition and lost your job…

I agree, it would be nice if the government could help alleviate things such as basic welfare and health care benefits. Unfortunately for the USA, we are in such a massive amount of debt that it would be impossible* for the government to do such a thing. And between health care and the military spending, we're pretty much diving deeper and deeper.

* We could do it, but I doubt that any legislators would go for such a thing.

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