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Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

bbc.com

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Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#391

Post by mcv »

k1m wrote: post #365
ckastner wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You quote: > “Mr. Assange has been deliberately exposed, for a period of several years, to progressively severe forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, the cumulative effects of which can only be described as psychological torture.“ That quote lacked information on who was exposing him and what that exposure actually was, so I followed your source. That source elaborates as follows: > “In the co…

I don't know how to respond to this. UN experts on human rights have looked into his situation and been quite alarmed by it. I can't think of a group of people more respected in the field of human rights than the experts at the UN. And yet there are commenters here on HN who, I don't know on what basis, write that it's all mostly "hyperbole".

It is mostly self-inflicted, though. He chose that exile over facing justice for these charges.

And calling systemic judicial prosecution "torture" is most certainly hyperbole. It's the job of the judicial system to prosecute people who break the law, and it's definitely better if they do so in a systemic rather than arbitrary way.

So while it's entirely possible that Assange shows symptoms of torture, the question remains who tortured him. For a long time, by his own choice, it was only the Ecuadorian embassy that had access to him.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#392

Post by isostatic »

ptaipale wrote: post #168
isostatic wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden doesn't have a death penalty. If it did, UK law would not allow extradition to Sweden.

It doesn't work quite like that. People can be extradited to countries that have death penalty, as long as the country gives guarantees that death penalty (or other cruel punishment) will not be applied. Thus it is possible for a person to be extradited to U.S. for a murder committed in the U.S., but the death penalty is then not possible.

Well yes, it was a shorthand.

There aren't many countries with the death penalty that the UK has an extradition treaty with - 12 out of 121.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#393

Post by alexandercrohde »

shadowgovt wrote: post #302
alexandercrohde wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Odds are pretty high the intelligence community has resulted in more attacks on America than it has prevented.

You're going to have to show your work on that assertion.

Or, maybe you can explain to me why the country that has the largest intelligence community by an order of magnitude also has the largest terrorism problem on the continent?

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#394

Post by shadowgovt »

koheripbal wrote: post #260
plesner wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible to be both unfairly targeted by a superpower and commit sexual assault, one doesn't cancel out the other. I'm not saying he did, I don't know how any of us could know. You seem quite confident he didn't though, I'm curious what you base that on.

People should be presumed innocent until proven guilty. That isn't just a legal principle - it's a philosophical principle. If you throw that away and want to talk about probabilities - that's ok too - but then you need to add the probability that the global super power put pressure on people to drum up baloney charges.

It's interesting that people have raised presumption of innocence until proven guilty to a philosophical principle, because its primary utility is as a legal principle.

Presumption of innocence in criminal cases has value because the state has all the power (including the monopoly on violence), so if they are to use their monopoly on violence to deprive anyone of their freedoms, the burden of proof should be extremely high to offset the inherent power imbalance. In other words, even if all other things are equal, we should make the state's job harder because if the state is "cheating" to get a conviction it's a lot likelier they will succeed than the individual.

As a larger philosophical principle, assumption of innocence isn't really proven out. Iterated prisoner's dilemma solutions suggest trust followed by tit-for-tat (i.e. presume innocence until someone shows they're willing to screw you over, then assume they're likely to continue screwing you over rather than assuming that was a one-off; this is a policy the law notably excludes, as past unrelated felony convictions aren't admissible evidence in a trial). I'm not saying we should toss presumption of innocence in the bin; merely that I'm skeptical of it as a deep true virtue to build one's values upon.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#395

Post by MuffinFlavored »

injb wrote: post #15
ivl wrote: post #2

> "The reason for this decision is that the evidence has weakened considerably due to the long period of time that has elapsed since the events in question." I'm not sure I understand what's meant by this. Did the victims testimony change? How does evidence weaken over time?

He's now safely in police custody and the US has already revealed its plans to extradite him, so there's no longer any need for the charges in Sweden. That's what's meant by this, imo.

Why is he in police custody? Excuse my ignorance, I don't know a lot about him other than he's a popular whistleblower who was involved in WikiLeaks. Is he in police custody for that?

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#396

Post by seirl »

blattimwind wrote: post #364
DubiousPusher wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If she finds his treatment report worthy she should visit almost any county jail in America and write a report. I'm seriously not being flippant. If people genuinely find this kind of treatment disturbing and inhumane then they should know it is befalling daily many of their over 2 million incarcerated American brothers and sisters.

The US justice system is possibly the most cruel justice system in the West, and by quite a margin, too. It is one of a few aspects in which the US is far closer to today's developing and third world countries than to the Western average. Also over many decades many organizations have called out the conditions in parts of the US justice system as torture(-like).

Yeah, the "few aspects" like the prison system, healthcare, inequality, corruption, homelessness rates, freedom of the press, air pollution, crime rates, discrimination, police violence, homicide rates, unemployment benefits, social nets...

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#397

Post by dingoegret »

ckastner wrote: post #318
k1m wrote: post #35

Worth mentioning that Nils Melzer, the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, visited Assange and described his treatment as psychological torture: > “It was obvious that Mr. Assange’s health has been seriously affected by the extremely hostile and arbitrary environment he has been exposed to for many years,” the expert said. “Most importantly, in addition to physical ailments, Mr. Assange showed all symptoms typical for…

You quote: > “Mr. Assange has been deliberately exposed, for a period of several years, to progressively severe forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, the cumulative effects of which can only be described as psychological torture.“ That quote lacked information on who was exposing him and what that exposure actually was, so I followed your source. That source elaborates as follows: > “In the co…

Self-inflicted? That makes no sense. I advise you to revise your understanding of that definition.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#398

Post by mariorossi666 »

dependenttypes wrote: post #371
mariorossi666 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless it means that those attacks that the intelligence community prevented will take place.

If I commit a murder I will go to jail, even if I make a magical pill that instantly cures cancer and AIDS. The same sadly does not happen for the intelligence community. They can murder as many innocent people as they want without having to prove their usefulness.

> The same sadly does not happen for the intelligence community

I confess I don't know, but I imagine that if you make some mistake while working for agencies like CIA or MI5 or KGB you simply disappear, you die if you're lucky, or something worse happens to you.

> They can murder as many innocent people as they want without having to prove their usefulness.

I seriously don't think it works like that...

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#399

Post by mariorossi666 »

WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #382
mariorossi666 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He always maintained he didn't face the charges in Sweden for fear of being extradited to the U.S. Yeah... not really. He's guilty of being a dick to women and is finally paying for it. According to court transcripts, Assange said he “wanted to impregnate women” and “preferred virgins because he would be the first to impregnate them”. He also reportedly told one of his alleged victims that “Sweden is a good country…

> being a dick to women I'll take things that are not crimes being used as proof of a crime for 1000, Alex.

> I'll take things that are not crimes being used as proof of a crime for 1000, Alex.

Rape is a crime.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#400

Post by vngzs »

shadowgovt wrote: post #310
colejohnson66 wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> handing them over to a foreign organization, and saying "You'll make the best use of this, I trust you" isn't whistleblowing. So Snowden isn’t a whistleblower because he gave them to the Guardian?

There are two answers to that: technical (legal) and moral. Technical (legal): No, clearly not. There's a reason he's hiding from the US justice system in Russia. He didn't follow the legal process for whistleblowing (and he probably should not have). Moral: The major difference between Manning and Snowden's leaks is that Snowden read the documents he forwarded and only collected and forwarded enough to blow the whis…

Oliver: How many of those documents have you actually read?

Snowden: I've evaluated all of the documents that are in the archive.

Oliver: You've read every single one?

Snowden: Well, I do understand what I turned over.

Oliver: But there's a difference between understanding what's in the documents and reading what's in the documents.

Snowden: I recognize the concern.

Oliver: Right, because when you're handing over thousands of NSA documents, the last thing you want to do is read them.

https://youtu.be/XEVlyP4_11M?t=1175

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