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One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

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Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#341

Post by [deleted] »

SquishyPanda23 wrote: post #340
mrrrgn wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "white supremacy" because you use it so often it seems like something nebulous. -- So it seems that "white supremacy" is a catchall term for anything that argues a biological basis for group differences. Thank you for the links and for not just being aghast that I didn't know this. :]

I'm not sure if you're joking, but white supremacy has a long history and is extremely well documented. Wikipedia is a reasonable place to start

[deleted]

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#342

Post by barry-cotter »

SquishyPanda23 wrote: post #317
thinkingemote wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Googler got fired for using unhelpful stereotypes. He didn't repeatedly claim women were inferior engineers (but I understand why people will believe it). Nor was it in my opinion intolerant but it was championed by those who are (there's a difference). It was some other unhelpful stereotype based on gender differences. The key take away is that generalising based on group Identity should not be done.

Did you actually follow this? His rant was basically just of a list of stock arguments from the scientific racism era. After he got fired his fans started a fundraiser on a white supremacy website. His arguments were stock white supremacy and the people who adopted him as a hero were stock white supremacists. This isn't hard to figure out.

Provide quotes. Name the website. Otherwise you’re convincing nobody.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#343

Post by dragontamer »

rhodysurf wrote: post #328
matthewmacleod wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, though, that politics is inherently tied up in actions related to the workplace. Let’s say one of your colleagues or managers occasionally makes decisions that would be frowned upon by some people. Maybe you’re recruiting, and they let slip that they passed over a female candidate because they thought she might have a child soon. Or maybe they passed on a gay man because they didn’t think he should be…

Those examples are not really political, but they are illegal.

They are illegal because the politics of the decades before us have decided they should be illegal.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#344

Post by alfromspace »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #323
aedron wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With 20 years experience under my belt, it is my firm belief that the workplace is not a place to discuss politics, religion, or other highly personal and divisive issues. Obviously, this extends even more to the workplace itself bringing these topics up. I'm not aggressive or even obvious about this disposition, I just gently steer clear of violating it. I feel the same should apply to companies, fine if you want to…

The problem is, though, that politics is inherently tied up in actions related to the workplace. Let’s say one of your colleagues or managers occasionally makes decisions that would be frowned upon by some people. Maybe you’re recruiting, and they let slip that they passed over a female candidate because they thought she might have a child soon. Or maybe they passed on a gay man because they didn’t think he should be…

Nice examples. Can we use some that are probably 100x more common at Google?

Maybe you’re recruiting, and they let slip that they passed over a white male candidate because they're working on a new diversity initiative. Or maybe, after being trained constantly on gender bias and seeing vigorous workplace political debates on the subject, you investigate the issue and find no evidence to support anything other than the fact that men and women have different preferences, and you present this evidence to the debate and get fired.

Even acknowledging such cases seems to be political.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#345

Post by RobertRoberts »

javagram wrote: post #127
RobertRoberts wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because in the US we have religious freedom so we don't feel the need to protest to demand others accommodate us? It's like a millionaire eating at a restaurant, and instead of tipping the waitress he expects to be tipped by the waitress. The extra demands only leave a bad taste in everyone else's mouths.

I don’t really understand the relation of your comment to mine. I’ve worked at a (US) company with a prayer room that was used by some Muslim employees. As a Christian myself, I don’t think it would have been considered a problem if I used it when it was vacant to say a prayer, although my religious tradition doesn’t have the 5x/day prayer requirement like Islam does so I never did.

I don't think only Muslims could use the rooms in any stories I have read about this topic. That wasn't my point.

Consider going to a Muslim majority country where the religion controls the laws (like Indonesia) and /demand/ your Christian religious needs be accommodated.

From my studying, you would either be summarily dismissed or even possibly punished.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#346

Post by lotsofpulp »

mcv wrote: post #304
JohnBooty wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Within reason, sure. I would say that the main value that underlies all EU countries (not that we realize it perfectly, or even get close to it, of course!) is that human beings are the most important thing. American here: I strongly agree. And I don't like giving more power to corporations. They have too much already, and I believe that strong labor movements are one way to fight this. Still, I just... would never f…

There's a difference between using the computer and expecting privacy on it. It's entirely possible that you're not supposed to use certain equipment for personal use, but if you do it anyway, that doesn't erode your right to privacy. I'm not saying this is always the case in the EU, though. Obviously there is equipment where for many reasons it's absolutely vital that you don't use it for anything personal. I'm not…

How would the company know you’re just using it for a bank payment as opposed to running a torrent client without having the ability to monitor activity?

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#347

Post by say_it_as_it_is »

uwydr wrote: post #302
say_it_as_it_is wrote: post #208

What we are seeing are the consequences of "Employee Capture". Google captured the hearts and minds of its employees for workplace productivity. Its side effects are varied. The real world only sees highlights. Googled created a bubble from which its employees can socialize without ever needing to do so with the outside world. Why talk politics with the outside world? Stay with us, where it is safe, people are intell…

>Google has a major lawsuit on its hands, regardless of whatever arbitration agreement it makes new-hires sign. Google is causing harm by capturing employees hearts and minds. What's next, suing a woman because she breaks your heart?

Like.. a divorce?

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#348

Post by stronglikedan »

helen___keller wrote: post #335
stronglikedan wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With 20 years experience under my belt, it is my firm belief that the workplace is not a place to discuss politics, religion, or other highly personal and divisive issues. I, too, old this belief, but it's kind of hard when the "new culture" is overwhelmed with a sense of entitlement to "be heard". Everyone thinks their individual opinions should be able to be shared whenever they feel the need to be validated, and…

Everything is relative to the discussion and beliefs at hand. If you want to disagree about fried chicken, fine, have your beliefs even if I think you're wrong. If you want to disagree about, say, LGBT rights, then I will probably deem that you are the bad person. That's how strong, deeply held beliefs work. I'm sure if I tried hard I could come up with an example of a belief that would make you consider me a bad per…

It's definitely entitlement when your supposed "right to be heard" on non-work-related issues seems more important than the workplace disruption it causes.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#349

Post by JohnBooty »

mrrrgn wrote: post #334
SquishyPanda23 wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you actually follow this? His rant was basically just of a list of stock arguments from the scientific racism era. After he got fired his fans started a fundraiser on a white supremacy website. His arguments were stock white supremacy and the people who adopted him as a hero were stock white supremacists. This isn't hard to figure out.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "white supremacy" because you use it so often it seems like something nebulous. -- So it seems that "white supremacy" is a catchall term for anything that argues a biological basis for group differences. Thank you for the links and for not just being aghast that I didn't know this. :]

We'll Google it for you.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/James_Damore#Sex_and_drugs_and...

RationalWiki has a very opinionated take on things, but that article is very well-sourced (75 linked sources!) so you can read right up.

Now, it could fairly be said that his pro-KKK arguments were more "glib humor" than endorsement and I'd agree. I would also say it's part of the pattern of negative workplace behavior that got him terminated.

In a larger sense, its these "oh, [group A] isn't performing as well as [group B]... must be biological differences" arguments that often form the faux-scientific basis for discrimination. Read any racist literature, and you will find a lot of "science" claiming that [insert racial group] here is biologically inferior. And, yes, that includes much Nazi propaganda.... justifications used by American slave-owners, etc.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#350

Post by ur-whale »

dev_north_east wrote: post #231
seibelj wrote: post #11

How about everyone goes to work and does their job and goes home. You can believe X, I can believe Y, and both of us believe Z, but XYZ doesn’t have anything to do with doing our jobs so we shouldn’t let it prevent us from doing our jobs. Super cool that everyone likes their own things though, I support liking things unrelated to job, just weird that people demand that their job adheres to whatever weird thing they l…

To be honest, I'm glad Google and others like them are there for the crazies. My experiences working with ex-Googlers was not positive. Bordering on hysterical, cringe beyond belief (sending site-wide emails starting with "If you're reading this you're probably a white, straight, man... blah blah" etc.), more interested in their own activism than work or actually getting along with other people.

> My experiences working with ex-Googlers was not positive

I believe you, but the fact that they weren't working there creates a statistical bias in the sample, don't you think?

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