One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions • Hacker News Board

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#281

Post by DagAgren » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:13 PM UTC

thinkingemote wrote: post #273

JohnBooty wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people say this, I feel they're often thinking about the decreased tolerance for toxic views. Like that ex-Googler who got fired for repeatedly claiming that women were inferior engineers. There's been a decreased tolerance for... well, intolerance.

The Googler got fired for using unhelpful stereotypes. He didn't repeatedly claim women were inferior engineers (but I understand why people will believe it). Nor was it in my opinion intolerant but it was championed by those who are (there's a difference). It was some other unhelpful stereotype based on gender differences. The key take away is that generalising based on group Identity should not be done.

Yeah, none of that is the case. The first thing he did after being fired was run to the far-right propaganda outlets. That was very telling of what he actually believed.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#282

Post by rtpg » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:13 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #170

thundergolfer wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps in an non-standard understanding of what is and isn't political. "Politics is a set of activities associated with the governance of a country or an area. It involves making decisions that apply to group of members" - Wikipedia > An apolitical office is political in the same sense that secularism is a religious stance. This sentence doesn't make any sense as Secularism is a political concept and not a "relig…

> "Politics is a set of activities associated with the governance of a country or an area. It involves making decisions that apply to group of members" - Wikipedia And thus, an office in which this "set of activities" is not permitted is an apolitical office. > An office can never be an apolitical entity, given that it involves the organisation of people and decision making about their activities, AND that office nec…

> And thus, an office in which this "set of activities" is not permitted is an apolitical office.

Organization of people involves power dynamics. Maybe you can make an argument that something like holocracy generates an apolitical environment, though I think that doesn't hold up experimentally.

Management deciding whether or not to increase vacation days is a political act. Employees deciding whether they want to stand together in negotations with management or handle stuff individually is a political decision. Hell, trying to push for more/less meetings in day to day work is a political act.

It's pretty hard to have any sort of organization without the political aspect coming into play immediately.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#283

Post by jacques_chester » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:13 PM UTC

cryptica wrote: post #214

>> The tracking had made the staff in those departments feel unsafe It's very strange how often this idea of 'feeling unsafe' is coming up in the media now. It seems that either: - People have become more fragile/sensitive; or - People have become more aggressive. I think it may be both. I think corporations create extremely unnatural, oppressive and coercive environments which makes people more outwardly sensitive b…

A third possibility is that this has always existed and you weren't aware of it before.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#284

Post by sjg007 » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:14 PM UTC

From the outside, it sounds like Google is imploding...

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#285

Post by raverbashing » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:14 PM UTC

DagAgren wrote: post #280

say_it_as_it_is wrote: post #208

What we are seeing are the consequences of "Employee Capture". Google captured the hearts and minds of its employees for workplace productivity. Its side effects are varied. The real world only sees highlights. Googled created a bubble from which its employees can socialize without ever needing to do so with the outside world. Why talk politics with the outside world? Stay with us, where it is safe, people are intell…

> Your colleagues are not an authentic social network who you can organise with and pursue activism. This is absolutely, 100% false. This is exactly what you SHOULD do, and this is what unions are for. Always organise with coworkers. Otherwise you are giving employers more power over you than you should.

Forming an union is one thing, having only your colleagues as friends is another entirely different

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#286

Post by DagAgren » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:14 PM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #203

mike00632 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being intolerant of intolerance is the only way to foster a tolerant society. It's the solution to the Paradox of Tolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Being intolerant of intolerant actions is what is necessary to maintain a tolerant society. If you tolerate intolerant views, the paradox doesn't arise.

Views lead to actions. You can not draw a line between them and hope people will happily stand on one side of it.

If you allow intolerant views, you normalise intolerance. If you normalise intolerance, you ALSO normalise intolerant acts, and they WILL follow naturally.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#287

Post by mlrtime » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:15 PM UTC

soup10 wrote: post #258

say_it_as_it_is wrote: post #208

What we are seeing are the consequences of "Employee Capture". Google captured the hearts and minds of its employees for workplace productivity. Its side effects are varied. The real world only sees highlights. Googled created a bubble from which its employees can socialize without ever needing to do so with the outside world. Why talk politics with the outside world? Stay with us, where it is safe, people are intell…

Every big firm brainwashes their employees to make a unified tribe and align interests with their business. It's fucked up but not against the law.

It's called company culture

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#288

Post by jacques_chester » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:16 PM UTC

cryptica wrote: post #249

nyolfen wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's just a fashionable rhetorical lever

I guess also employees are more likely to use 'feeling unsafe' as an excuse to get more control within the company. So for example, if you want to get someone fired in order to take their position, and that person is already in a difficult position for whatever reason, you can just say "That person makes me feel unsafe" as a way to break the camel's back and finally get your promotion.

Psychopathy exists and psychopaths will always exploit social norms and accommodations.

That is not a sufficient reason to abandon social norms and accommodations.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#289

Post by JohnBooty » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:17 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #11

How about everyone goes to work and does their job and goes home. You can believe X, I can believe Y, and both of us believe Z, but XYZ doesn’t have anything to do with doing our jobs so we shouldn’t let it prevent us from doing our jobs. Super cool that everyone likes their own things though, I support liking things unrelated to job, just weird that people demand that their job adheres to whatever weird thing they l…

Generally, yes, I agree.

However there are a lot of beliefs that make this kind of approach unworkable.

If XYZ wants to believe that the earth is flat, sure, that can just be a personal belief and won't interfere with his work duties... well, unless he is launching satellites for NASA.

If XYZ is a furry and thinks anime girls in cat outfits are hot, sure, that's cool too. Also a personal belief that probably won't interfere with work.

If XYZ is an anti-vaxxer... well, probably won't interfere with their job unless they work in medicine. A dumb personal belief but this can probably stay personal.

But suppose employee XYZ runs a newsletter (in his own time) and publishes views about how Jews or women or black people or whatever are inferior. Can you really trust this employee to do his job at your company, where he might have to interact with people from those groups?

So, I don't think a naive approach of "just keep work and personal beliefs separate" covers 100% of situations.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#290

Post by Nasrudith » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 1:22 PM UTC

xenyal wrote: post #93

jessaustin wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Efficiency is the last thing any subject wants from the Law.

Why is that?

Because historically practicality is the limiting factor for enforcement as opposed to any regard for those affected by it. Keeping it expensive has generally resulted in a situational usage where it is more appropriate and far less abusable.