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One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

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Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#271

Post by JohnBooty »

matwood wrote: post #259
Hitton wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny thing is, that although Google boasts about its racial and gender diversity, there is preciously little ideological diversity. And once people stray, they must be purged.

For all the talk of inclusiveness today, there is actually very little empathy for groups not of your own (people really should watch This Is Water daily as a reminder). If a person doesn't believe exactly what you believe they must be a . This destroys any real conversation around those topics, and I think ends up pushing normal people toward the fringes.

When people say this, I feel they're often thinking about the decreased tolerance for toxic views. Like that ex-Googler who got fired for repeatedly claiming that women were inferior engineers.

There's been a decreased tolerance for... well, intolerance.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#273

Post by thinkingemote »

JohnBooty wrote: post #271
matwood wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all the talk of inclusiveness today, there is actually very little empathy for groups not of your own (people really should watch This Is Water daily as a reminder). If a person doesn't believe exactly what you believe they must be a . This destroys any real conversation around those topics, and I think ends up pushing normal people toward the fringes.

When people say this, I feel they're often thinking about the decreased tolerance for toxic views. Like that ex-Googler who got fired for repeatedly claiming that women were inferior engineers. There's been a decreased tolerance for... well, intolerance.

The Googler got fired for using unhelpful stereotypes.

He didn't repeatedly claim women were inferior engineers (but I understand why people will believe it). Nor was it in my opinion intolerant but it was championed by those who are (there's a difference). It was some other unhelpful stereotype based on gender differences.

The key take away is that generalising based on group Identity should not be done.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#274

Post by [deleted] »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #182
RickJWagner wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this. Politics in America runs about 50-50. Religion is similarly every person's preference. Taking either of those to work is a formula for disaster. I'm just amazed that companies haven't done a better job of enforcing "Leave that at home" 'till now. It really wasn't a thing until a decade or so ago.

Politics is already at work. The larger the corporation, the more likely it is to be involved in politics in a very direct way. As a minion, you're discouraged from holding an opinion on company time, and even more strongly discouraged from doing anything that might affect the natural corporate power balance. Active political engagement is a privilege reserved for upper management, who certainly won't be leaving thei…

[deleted]

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#275

Post by barry-cotter »

JohnBooty wrote: post #271
matwood wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all the talk of inclusiveness today, there is actually very little empathy for groups not of your own (people really should watch This Is Water daily as a reminder). If a person doesn't believe exactly what you believe they must be a . This destroys any real conversation around those topics, and I think ends up pushing normal people toward the fringes.

When people say this, I feel they're often thinking about the decreased tolerance for toxic views. Like that ex-Googler who got fired for repeatedly claiming that women were inferior engineers. There's been a decreased tolerance for... well, intolerance.

> Like that ex-Googler who got fired for repeatedly claiming that women were inferior engineers.

Who? Please provide quotes to support your case if you’re thinking of the most famous example because I don’t recall any such argument. It was all about interests, not capacities.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#276

Post by jacques_chester »

bjourne wrote: post #213
nearbuy wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Larry Page and Sergey Brin ... had designed their company's famously open culture to facilitate free thinking. Employees were “obligated to dissent” if they saw something they disagreed with, and they were encouraged to “bring their whole selves” to work rather than check their politics and personal lives at the door. Seems like James Damore took their advice.

Yes. What is your point? Must you either be in favor of James Damore and against these Googlers who are trying to organize the workplace or vice versa? Can't everyone get to share their political views and also keep their jobs?

> Can't everyone get to share their political views and also keep their jobs?

I think that "bring your whole self" assumed that the politics everyone would talk about would be politics in the general, diffuse, societal sense. The proper scope of government, the merits of particular policies and candidates, how to solve problems X and Y.

Politics in the sense of judging on who deserves to work at Google, or who is underserving, which directly implies that certain Googlers would be unfit to be there under different regimes, isn't outward-facing. It directly hurts peers. A policy which evicts someone for introducing the notion that some Googlers are unfit to be Googlers will also selectively hurt some folks at Google for speaking their mind.

Google can't have it both ways. I think they made the better choice. I'd rather treat my coworkers compassionately, think of them as humans with complex natures, than to be "right" and "meritocratic" and make them feel threatened and unworthy.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#277

Post by ethbro »

manfredo wrote: post #140
defen wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google also has a clause in their employment agreement that says you agree to them putting surveillance software on your devices, company supplied and personal, as a condition of your employment. How would Google even know about your personal devices? That seems to only make sense if you intend to use your personal device for work.

It's not even an unusual condition. At Dropbox, starting some time in either 2018 or 2019 we had to install a remote administration app on our devices if we wanted to connect to corp vpn or to log into corporate google accounts. Mostly so that the device could be wiped if it was lost, IIRC.

Yeah, that's pretty normal for campus network access. Otherwise it kind of defies the logic of having a corporate network in the first place.

It's definitely a slippery slope though.

"If we already have a privileged app running on people's devices... {insert management-centric ask}"

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#278

Post by SmellyGeekBoy »

PunchTornado wrote: post #220
say_it_as_it_is wrote: post #208

What we are seeing are the consequences of "Employee Capture". Google captured the hearts and minds of its employees for workplace productivity. Its side effects are varied. The real world only sees highlights. Googled created a bubble from which its employees can socialize without ever needing to do so with the outside world. Why talk politics with the outside world? Stay with us, where it is safe, people are intell…

> earlier this month, more than 1,000 employees called on the company to cancel deals with oil and gas companies. what's wrong with these employees? Keep your political opinions to yourself. So they propose that my company lose money because of your activism. Don't agree! What if some employees asked that Google cancel any deals with climate change NGOs? How would these employees feel about it?

How would you feel if instead of Google it was Facebook, and instead of oil and gas they were raising privacy concerns?

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#279

Post by JohnBooty »

normalnorm wrote: post #250
lotsofpulp wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expecting to have the same rights as if using your own devices when using someone else’s device that they are paying you to perform work on qualifies as an indignity to me. Do people in EU countries expect to use any other of their employer’s equipment for personal reasons?

> Expecting to have the same rights as if using your own devices when using someone else’s device that they are paying you to perform work on qualifies as an indignity to me. Every single second that you are working, you know that your employer might be looking over your shoulder. It's like living under a microscope. For me, this is an indignity. Having to work in such circumstances would probably drive me to deep de…

    Within reason, sure. I would say that the main value that
    underlies all EU countries (not that we realize it
    perfectly, or even get close to it, of course!) is that
    human beings are the most important thing.
American here: I strongly agree. And I don't like giving more power to corporations. They have too much already, and I believe that strong labor movements are one way to fight this.

Still, I just... would never feel "entitled" to use my employer's property for personal uses. And I wouldn't have an expectation of privacy. When I care about privacy, I simply use my own device.

Now, let me be clear. The reality of working in America is that people use their work computers for personal uses all day long. Generally nobody cares, as long as you're getting your work done.

And if somebody really needs to do something personal, they can always just whip our their phones. If I was printing out some concert tickets at work, I'd use my employer's printer. Everybody does this. But if I was going to send some sexy messages I wouldn't do it with work equipment.

So, I don't know. I just don't see the problem. There are many many problems with America, and many ways in which Europe does things better IMO. I just don't see this as one of them.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#280

Post by DagAgren »

say_it_as_it_is wrote: post #208

What we are seeing are the consequences of "Employee Capture". Google captured the hearts and minds of its employees for workplace productivity. Its side effects are varied. The real world only sees highlights. Googled created a bubble from which its employees can socialize without ever needing to do so with the outside world. Why talk politics with the outside world? Stay with us, where it is safe, people are intell…

> Your colleagues are not an authentic social network who you can organise with and pursue activism.

This is absolutely, 100% false. This is exactly what you SHOULD do, and this is what unions are for.

Always organise with coworkers. Otherwise you are giving employers more power over you than you should.

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