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Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

gitlab.com

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Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#571
post #7

The title seems misleading, the article specifically states this does not effect any current employees, presumably as they have none in China and Russia. > As such we feel a country block is the most humane solution at this time--especially because it affects zero current employees

Correct, this block would be for two functions (Site Reliability Engineer and Support) and we currently have no people in that role in China and Russia. Please note that we're still discussing this change. We work out in the open so you can see us working on it. I hope that people appreciate the difference between that and what you would see in a non-transparent company (probably nothing, they would just not open up…

[deleted]

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#572
post #7

The title seems misleading, the article specifically states this does not effect any current employees, presumably as they have none in China and Russia. > As such we feel a country block is the most humane solution at this time--especially because it affects zero current employees

Correct, this block would be for two functions (Site Reliability Engineer and Support) and we currently have no people in that role in China and Russia. Please note that we're still discussing this change. We work out in the open so you can see us working on it. I hope that people appreciate the difference between that and what you would see in a non-transparent company (probably nothing, they would just not open up…

Concerns on privacy, data and IP are understandable. However, this ban would be a symbolic move with absolutley zero substance. The world is small and highly interconnected and it would be extremely easy for the Russian and Chinese governments to compromise and co-opt support staff from pretty much any country of their chosing. This will lulll your customers and your infosec teams into a false sense of security. Considering how forthcoming you are with the names, roles and location of your team. They would pick you off in a heart beat and you would not suspect or see it coming. The Chinese are extremely well entrenched across the global - with enough money to grease anybody's wheels. Not to mention it would be trivial for them to get their "agents" passports from anywhere in the world

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#573
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Companies don't make decisions based on morality." So let's just label every employee with a Foreign/Chinese/Russian background as a spy, because a client says so?

Why not? And Australians, they're explicitly (by law) required to be spies. And your comment suggests as much - why would opsec about consumer / sensitive data be important unless you expect your employees to act in less-than-fair manner (be that for personal gain, a competitor's gain, a national gain, ...)?

Dammit.. was hoping Australia could silently slip under the radar on this one.

The thing that I suspect that most people don't understand about Australia is that the laws don't really mean shit all unless the situation gets very serious very fast.

I know people who have received aa requests who have literally responded with "get fucked mate, why on earth would I do that?" and the response has (for every instance I'm aware of) been "yea, true. it was a bit of a stretch"

It's rather like the Australian constitution, I'm fairly sure I've seen a joke around about it, we have one but like... no one actually cares... if shit really hits the fan I'm sure we'll all go find a copy and figure it out, but otherwise we're doing only slightly less than alright just kinda playing it by ear...

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#574
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congratulations on taking a step in the right direction, even if it is a very small step. Nobody else seems to take the threat seriously, somewhat excepting defense contractors of course. I can understand being reluctant to deal with the full extent of the problem. Somebody from China, with a family in China and subject to Chinese law, does not cease to be a security threat by moving to the USA and getting a green ca…

I on the other hand think that splitting countries into allies and enemies is stupid. China is a huge country, and excluding a billion people from your company just because their government does questionable things sounds like a pretty bad idea. If you are really concerned about the confidentiality of your data, don't store it unencrypted in some SaaS where every customer service rep has full access to all your data.…

Trolling much? I expect a lot of Chinese rationalizing why this is a bad idea. After all, you get good social points for supporting the Party. Otherwise...

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#575
post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reply to the flagged reply: 1. While the Constitution of the People's Republic of China does protect religious freedom, this is only under the condition that the religious beliefs in question do not disturb the social order, cause bodily harm or obstruct the national education system. That means in practice, people will be detained for beliefs that are considered too extremist. 2. Would you believe me that they ex…

1&2. Oh, sorry I forgot the extremist. So what would you do when you face an extremist? Ignore him so he can stab innocent people in a railway station? Or you show him why he shouldn't do that, maybe even teach him some skills so he can make a living and become a part of society? The latter is exactly what "education centers" do according to the link. And it is described quite clearly that the center is not a prison…

> Ignore him so he can stab innocent people in a railway station?

Maybe not, but not all beliefs that are defined as extremist are of the stabby kind. It's a bit hard to get information on which specific beliefs are covered; http://www.xjnj.gov.cn/jgdj/flfg/201502/09174829hwdu.html talks mostly in general terms, but does explicitly mention "活佛转世". Belief in reincarnation is not exactly a violent ideology, but it does create a separate hierarchy (of reincarnated lamas) that does not directly answer to the CPC, which I guess falls under the "social order" exception. Also, various kinds of headscarves and beards seem to be forbidden alongside the Turkish/East Turkestan flags: http://xjtzb.gov.cn/2017-06/19/1121167392_14978365485711n.jp... (I realize the image is watermarked by some random WeChat account; but the reposting by the Xinjiang branch of the United Front seems like an endorsement.)

> maybe even teach him some skills so he can make a living and become a part of society? The latter is exactly what "education centers" do according to the link.

I don't have a problem with that in itself, but that's contingent on the implementation. Making the plan work requires lots of resources, not just the one-off construction of buildings, but also teachers, guards and other supporting staff. There's already a shortage of teachers in poorer regions of China, so where are all those teachers coming from? How are they trained? The inmates aren't going to be economically productive for some time, so how are their living expenses paid? What about the loss of income to their family members?

These are all difficult problems to solve, and I'm not sure the Chinese government has actually solved them.

> the center is not a prison or Auschwitz (go back home regularly)

I agree that comparisons with concentration camps are not appropriate, because the purpose is not genocide, but ideological assimilation. However, I'm not too sure about the "going home" part. Only one of the three groups are voluntary signups; what's the point of sending someone there involuntarily if they can just go? They might even end up stabbing someone.

> did you get in touch of some Uyghur or you just surmise their thought from, let me cite Trump, "Fake News"?

Unfortunately, Uyghurs are a bit rare where I live. It's certainly possible that the Uyghur and Kazakh Muslims who have appeared as eyewitnesses in Western media are just making everything up, or maybe their experience was simply atypical. After all, among a million people, finding one who had to live in a room with ten people because the new dorms weren't finished yet, or who was hit by a frustrated teacher, or who was raped by a drunk guard, is kind of to be expected. In that context, a statement from the government that they're investigating those crimes and will punish those responsible would be much more reassuring than a complete denial that anything bad ever happened.

Maybe you could ask some of your Uyghur friends if they know anyone who went to one of these centers and what they thought of the experience. I guess that'd be much more informative than debating with me.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#576
post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expect the 'free' press is more akin to 'corporate press' & the elections results in the person getting the most votes not being elected President.

I don't understand how these things somehow result in there being no difference between the US and China. Of course it's an imperfect system. Try handing out flyers about civil rights in Washington DC and then try it in Beijing. Of course it's easy to criticize the electoral college but look at the results of direct democracy recently, Brexit, the initial rejection of the FARC peace agreement in Columbia. There's a r…

> Of course it's easy to criticize the electoral college but look at the results of direct democracy recently, Brexit, the initial rejection of the FARC peace agreement in Columbia.

The obvious counter-example to this argument is Switzerland, which has been a direct democracy (or as close as you can get) for more than 120 years.

Brexit wasn't caused by the system by which the vote was conducted. It was a genuine public sentiment that had been cultivated through decades of media propaganda and scapegoating by politicians. Yes, the fact it was a single-issue vote made the issue more prominent, but it's entirely possible that the same result may have occurred through a general election if the right parties had been galvanized in the same manner.

> There's a reason representative democracy is prefered to direct, it's just difficult to get a balance.

I wonder which group of people overwhelmingly prefers such a system. Political apathy is rampant throughout the world of representative democracies, with a prevailing sentiment that people's views aren't being represented. Two-party politics results in elites being able to control the scope of options available to the electorate.

> Odds are that the Electoral College will be gone in my lifetime.

We can only hope, but that won't solve the two-party problem (or any of the other problems in American democracy such as the rank corruption).

> Is the authoritarian Chinese system better? Of course not.

Is anyone arguing that? The whole point being made is that America is in no position to take the moral high-ground. The US financially (and usually militarily) backs 70% of the world's dictators.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#577
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nationalism has always been high in China ever since the CCP took control. Not being a nationalist would be a good way to suddenly disappear off the face of the Earth. China has always had double standards. They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there. The only thing that has changed is that the U.S has started pushing back somewhat as of late, but things are still currently in favor of China. When China…

>realize that personal liberties, sovereignty and privacy are important to the "west" I think that Snowden showed us that this is not actually true. Things like National Security letters and the PATRIOT act make the US to me, as a European, seem very hypocritical right now.

Oh no, Snowden. I guess then all other world powers are equally as shitty as the US.

Search "false equivalence". Use Baidu. Or Yandex.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, for starters. I find it intellectually dishonest to compare the USA’s foreign policy with a dictatorship government that forces compliance through threats on local relatives, etc.

> Well, the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, for starters. Right, if you're a U.S citizen maybe not, otherwise they'll do that and worse, read on "enhanced integrations", kidnappings etc. So the U.S is better domestically, (still employs prisoners as effectively slave labor, treats minorities harshly, lets people die due to lack of healthcare...), but it is worse in terms of foreign p…

you are Howard Zinn, and I want my prize!

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I on the other hand think that splitting countries into allies and enemies is stupid. China is a huge country, and excluding a billion people from your company just because their government does questionable things sounds like a pretty bad idea. If you are really concerned about the confidentiality of your data, don't store it unencrypted in some SaaS where every customer service rep has full access to all your data.…

> China is a huge country, and excluding a billion people from your company just because their government does questionable things sounds like a pretty bad idea. People have to do what the state they live in and belong to orders them to do. That's part of the point of having a state. So if you can't trust a state you can't trust its people either. > you are really concerned about the confidentiality of your data, don…

> I don't think dissolving the company is on the table.

Zing! Solid line but it misses the point. As with any other data, you can encrypt source code. It's perfectly easy to envision a setup where Gitlab employees in country X can only see plaintext Gitlab data they could already see over the public internet.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you in USA? Should other countries refuse to employ USA citizens because of actions of the government - things like pulling out of Syria to enable the Turkish murder of the Kurds to continue. >China has been using our money ... The best way is to vote with your money then?

Well, the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, for starters. I find it intellectually dishonest to compare the USA’s foreign policy with a dictatorship government that forces compliance through threats on local relatives, etc.

USA has been a dictator around the world for a century. So many unethical wars involved. So many radical movements are cultivated by US propaganda. Now these fear fed propaganda are dividing itself and destroying the future. People who are blind to all these are the ones full of fake Democracy ideology.
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