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Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

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Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I specifically said regardless of the branch (I wrote regardless of whom) of government it is embarassing. A free people should have the right to protest. If this is aiding terrorism that is a whole other boat.

I think in some languages the word for "government" is used to refer to the executive branch or its head more directly, whereas in English it's often used to refer to its multiple branches.

Actually, in English the word "government" is used to refer to the executive branch in places that have the Westminster tradition. For instance, whereas an American might say "the administration condemned those who eat cheese with a fork", an Australian would say "the government has condemned those who eat cheese with a fork". (I think Americans are more careful about distinguishing the state and federal administrations compared to an Australian, who is generally pretty lax about such technicalities in between elections.)

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#522
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The treatment of Carles Puigdemont and others is hardly consistent with free expression.

Puigdemoont is free and has been free to say whatever he wants but embezzlment is a crime.

Executing your elected mandate is not embezzlement. Calling a spade a fish does not make it a fish, even if the courts of law in your state agree with you. If the government of Catalonia was not competent to hold a referendum, they should have been dismissed. (The central government in Spain retains that authority.)

If it was not politically possible to dismiss them, then spending public resources on a policy which is the raison d'etre for the governing parties but which is outside the competence of that government should merely be considered a cost of the distribution of power.

Other democracies constantly have disputes about whether such a use of funds is within the competence of a specific government. And they find that, no, it is not within the competence of a specific government. And they manage to cope without charging anyone with embezzlement despite the money having been irrecoverably spent.

If this is too much for Spain, then Spain should remove the statutes of autonomy.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#524
post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is complicated, but let's say that the EU's arguments are all basically arguments for empires and they are happy to say so. Look at the recent speech by Verhofstadt where he praised empires and said Europe must become one. But that's nonsense. Literally all the bloodshed and horrors Europe went through in the 20th century were caused by attempts to unite it into a single empire. The bizarre lesson some people se…

You say: > Literally all the bloodshed and horrors Europe went through in the 20th century were caused by attempts to unite it into a single empire. The bizarre lesson some people see in this is to keep trying Here is a response to this from [0]: > Within the zone of integration, there has been no conflict since 1945, making it the longest period of peace on the western European mainland since Pax Romana So from this…

I understand this argument but find it brittle.

Firstly, yes, empires can be good for peace in some ways. The Roman Empire had Pax Romana. But the Soviet Union was also internally fairly peaceful, at least as much if not much more than the Roman Empire. Oddly enough, lots of people didn't want to be a part of either empire. There are downsides to empires that outweigh enforced "peace".

Secondly:

EU is not an empire and it is not trying to be

I think you missed a possibility: the EU is not an empire yet but is trying to be, and this is already causing various kinds of conflict. The fact that it's not creating World War 3 is no excuse: the Soviets didn't cause World War 3 either but not many people think the USSR was a good thing.

For an empire to dominate people it must have at least two things. One, a large number of people physically within that population who are loyal to the regime. Two, military strength to swiftly put down any rebellions and ensure the loyalists remain in power.

The EU has the first in abundance, as the horrible situation in the UK is showing. People were given a vote. The British establishment are refusing to implement it, as they're more loyal to the EU than to their own voters. This is no surprise because the same pattern is observed throughout Europe, where the EU creates a constant series of constitutional crises. Democracy is being crushed throughout the continent without a shot being fired due to the massive weight of regime loyalists already in positions of power.

The EU doesn't yet have the second. But it wants it very, very badly and has identified an EU army which reports directly to the Commission as its new top priority. Why does the EU need an army when NATO exists and works? Nobody can quite explain that. But let's face it: people keep voting in anti-EU politicians throughout Europe and if current trends continue, eventually one of these power struggles will be lost by the loyalists. The only way the EU could then keep control is by suppressing anti-EU citizens through force. If the local police won't do it, an EU army will be ready to step in and enforce Commission policy. It's hardly going to be useful for major conflict anytime soon given its size and newness, but as a form of ultra-loyal police it won't be half bad.

I'm personally planning based on the belief that the EU will be a new USSR-style empire before I reach retirement, complete with ability to put down insurrections, a large propaganda apparatus and ideological loyalty of at least 100 million people. I expect to die of old age with it firmly in control of most of Europe.

Finally:

Second: The collaboration between countries is not mandatory to be an empire as form.

I completely agree, so why are we building one? The useful work the EU does could be better done by a constellation of standards bodies and independent political alliances. The politics of unity and Europeanism that comes with it is unnecessary and dangerous.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#525
post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, my apologies. Let's be specific then. Show me please some international authority saying that the sentence was wrong, or that they did the right thing disobeying court orders or with that "declaration of independence" (what the hell was that more than a provocation that they knew could get them in jail?). But, please, do not show me people saying that they want a democratic solution, that they are against police…

Sorry, it's late and I'm tired of having the burden of proof. This is what I will add to the reactions to the ruling (and to the trial) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Catalonia_independenc... . Several international organizations having problems with the trial, not many international reactions on either side. About the UDI... it was a letdown, that was not a real one and everyone that wanted one was disappoin…

Thank you for taking the time to write that comment. Everyone is tired and a bit too sensitive now and, even if I don't agree with many of the things you say, I sincerely appreciate that you are trying to give your reasons and answering questions, and helping to keep the discussion civilized.

If you don't mind, I will response to your points one by one. Feel free to not respond if you don't feel like it.

> Cultural freedom.

I think we will agree the situation has greatly improved in the last 40 years. I also agree with you it has to improve more. There is indeed some reject to everything related to Catalan culture by a minority in the centre of Spain. I have seen similar attitudes in the other side (hate for everything related with Spain). At least where I'm from (deep Castille), most of these people will be death in the next 20 years. Unfortunately, this is changing right now, due to the last events (from both sides).

> Money.

Any wealthy region has to help poorer regions for the greater being. Where to put the line is a matter of personal opinion. Although I don't share it, I respect your opinion that the line should be the border of Catalonia.

> Corruption.

This is as much a Spanish problem as a Catalan problem. Everybody in Spain (and everywhere else) is against corrupt politicians (even the corrupt politicians if you ask them!).

> Future and public services.

Again, everyone wants that, and this is not an "Spanish problem".

As you correctly say, it's up and down. Up is powerful, really powerful. When you need to fight a powerful force, looking for cooperation is always more useful than confrontation. You will find strong support all over Spain for these demands, or most of them. As you will find support to have a fairer justice system, or against the anti-riot police (everyone who has been at the other side at some point hates them). I understand these problems, but I do not see how independence will solve them. In some cases, I think all this "proces" is just making it worse.

But we do not need to agree. It is ok if we have different opinions. Again, thank you for a civilized discussion (it's getting harder and harder these days).

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#526
post #414
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are talking about a region of Spain that in 1978 voted YES to approve the Spanish constitution. One of the wealthiest regions of an EU member. This is not an oppressed or punished population, the right of self determination does not apply to it when it's an autonomous region that is part of a functioning modern democracy. Even ex-UN chief Ban Ki-moon agreed on this: https://www.thejournal.ie/catalan-independence-b…

> We are talking about a region of Spain that in 1978 voted YES to approve the Spanish constitution. More reductionist argument. Catalonia, and any other region in Spain voted between a constitution and a possible new dictatorship. Trying to imply that, since a group of people signed something 40 years ago, everybody in that region is rejecting their rights not explicitly expressed in that constitution is dishonest.…

Read that report you linked. According to it, most Catalans are not so eager to leave as you say (and I would not call it an impartial source). For example, in page 4 you can clearly see: 43.6% wants an independent Catalunya, but 48.2% wants to remain being a part of Spain.

Why is the tyranny of the majority wrong (this is what most people would call democracy) but you see no problem with the tyranny of a minority?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#527
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes we can. There are independentists in parliament. The president of Catalonia is an independentist. Pro-independence demonstrations happen and there are no arrests just by going there (except in riots, but that's because the police force is way too uncontrolled, not because of a general freedom of expression issue). This takedown was to an app that was used to organize a blockage of a major airport. I do not agree…

No. That's a false wrapper around "lack of freedom" trying to make it look like freedom. The politicians are free to have independentist ideology, and they can put it into their political program. But if they try to execute some pro-independence laws, they are blocked by the overuse of judiciary system in Spain and threatened (or punished). So yes, the Catalan independentists are there for their ideas. Carme Forcadel…

According to your reasoning, if I am a communist and think that everything has to be shared, and decide to take your property and get in jail, I would be a political prisoner because I would be there for my ideas.

And Carme Forcadell is not going to spend 10 years in jail. I would bet she will be out next year.

Please, stop spreading lies.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can count with one hand the amount of state constitutions that allow the sudden declaration of independence of a part of their territory. Self-determination is a right you reject when you step foot on Spain (and practically every other country). We might have to change that, I don't know, but the Spanish constitution is no fascist rule, or else almost all modern democratic states are, too. It is very complicated.

Is it? The UK allowed Scotland to decide and it's been peaceful. Also, isn't the relevant section of the Spanish constitution from a fascist era?

No, current constitution was redacted after the death of the dictator. There were mainly seven people involved in writing it. Between them, there was a communist, a socialist, a representative of the Basque and Catalan minorities, and only one who came from previous governments during the dictatorship. By the way, two of these seven people (the communist one and the representative of Basque-Catalan minorities) were from Catalonia (this is almost the perfect proportion taking into account the fraction of Spain that Catalonia represents, but if you know that Spain has 17 autonomous regions, it is obvious that Catalonia was not misrepresented).

You will read several comments here saying similar things (I have read something like that this constitution was only voted because the only other option was another war), but it is simply not true, as you can easily check in any independent source.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#529
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They misused the political institutions for their benefit and pushed their agenda even when they have been warned several times of the penal consequences. There can be disagreement with the conviction time, but they are not innocents.

> they have been warned several times of the penal consequences If this is a common sentiment in Spain on how to resolve such issues, I wouldn't call it a democracy. The UK has many problems, but it handled the Scottish referendum much better.

The Catalan parliament, which works based on laws on which the central government does not have nothing to say, required a large majority to pass important laws. The independentist government decided to ignore that law and go on with it, ignoring the advice of their own layers. They know not even half of their population wants independence [1], and they still decided to declare it based on the results of a referendum that, independently of how bad the police actions were, cannot be taken seriously.

If you think that not allowing a minority to impose their ideas on a majority is not democratic, then I do not know what democracy is.

[1] This report is by the (independentist) government of Catalonia, and clearly says that according to their polls less than 44% wants to leave and more than 48% wants to stay in Spain: http://icps.cat/archivos/sondeigs/dossiersc2019cat.pdf?noga=...

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very reasonable question, and Brexit is also relevant in that discussion. Perhaps it would be a good idea to require a qualified majority for cases like this.

Why does not the status quo require some qualified majority?

The status quo was already established by a very qualified majority. Changing it should require a qualified majority too.

It's the same reason a thermostat is not constantly switching on and off when you cross the set temperature. Heating will start when you go a couple of degrees below the desired temperature, and it will only stop when you reach a couple of degrees more. Else, you have an unstable system (this is not my opinion, it's very basic control systems theory).

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