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Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

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Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#181

Post by typenil »

reallydontask wrote: post #164
mindB wrote: post #156

Github will not be shutdown over any action they do or do not take in Spain. The worst that can happen to Github is that they are prevented from doing business in Spain. Given how strongly Spain has come down against freedom of expression on the Catalonia issue, Github is making it very clear by taking this action that freedom of expression is not one of their values. Let me repeat, Spain has come down hard enough ag…

> I highly value freedom of expression, and to me it is especially important to me that a code-hosting and (like it or not) a social media website holds to that value as well. This will definitely affect whether I choose Github or Microsoft in the future. Would you rather choose a company that doesn't comply with local laws? Most governments ( no doubt, yours too), want companies operating under their jurisdiction to…

Gotta point out that the comment pretty clearly indicated that GitHub should cease to operate in Spain. Not operating somewhere doesn’t violate local laws.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#182

Post by braythwayt »

Miner49er wrote: post #148
DangerousPie wrote: post #140

It was a warrant issued by a Spanish court that Github legally had to comply with. You can be angry at the court for issuing such a warrant but you can't be angry at Github for complying. They are not above the law, even if they may disagree with it.

You can certainly be angry at Github for complying. People break the law all the time in order to do what is moral. Look at Chelsea Manning who's in jail right now for just that.

I'm well to the left of Hacker News, but on this point we disagree. If we get angry with people for not breaking the law, we create an environment where people pretend to be activists to avoid our wrath.

That removes the biggest and most important component of activism: People's authentic willingness to sacrifice in exchange for the greatest good.

People need to make a free and willing choice to engage in civil disobedience.

---

Now that being said, there's another thing on which we might agree. Even if they don't break the law, I am prepared to disapprove of companies that are complicit in wrongdoing.

Complicity is looking the other way or participating. For example, supplying goods and services to ICE is being be complicit in ICE's actions.

I am not going to be angry with someone who complies with a court order to supply, say, employee information to ICE. But I will be angry with a company--cough, Microsoft, cough--who provides billions of dollars in services to ICE.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#183

Post by fluffything »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #127
fluffything wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as Spain's judiciary still sees it fit to hand out multi-year sentences to people peacefully following democratic principles, they seem very much an extension of the government and not an independent body. The judiciary follows the laws, which are written by the senate, which is elected by the spanish people. So those "people peacefully following democratic principles" being arrested is the will of the Span…

Sentencing is a judges prerogative, yes? So draconian sentencing is not so inevitable as that?

A judge is required to act according to the law. Not following because they disagree with it is not an option on any modern democracy.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#184

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

hummel wrote: post #173
mindB wrote: post #156

Github will not be shutdown over any action they do or do not take in Spain. The worst that can happen to Github is that they are prevented from doing business in Spain. Given how strongly Spain has come down against freedom of expression on the Catalonia issue, Github is making it very clear by taking this action that freedom of expression is not one of their values. Let me repeat, Spain has come down hard enough ag…

Watching your Github profile I see you are from the US, time to get back to history classes and time to fight for the freedom of expression on your own country, which is ranked on 49 on Press Freedom Index 2019 https://rsf.org/en/ranking next to Senegal and Romania.

Pretty meaningless index when American citizens are free to promote a separatist agenda and the higher ranked Spaniards can't.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#185

Post by droithomme »

cfv wrote: post #101
deltron3030 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm against the Catalonian independence, so everyone knows where I'm coming from The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. I also think that a secession wouldn't be the smartest choice, but that's a totally different matter. A functional democracy implies that the whole has to arrange itself democratically with the parts it consists of, if not it ri…

It's neither impossible nor unlawful though, they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving. The fascist dictator who formed modern Spain made it so its constituent lands can expel a part of it but no one part of it can choose to leave. This is the root of why the procés is illegal, and why they are being charged as violent agitators. They are seen as young kids trying to leave their parent's house…

> they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving

I wonder if the American colonies which seceded from Great Britain in 1776 received the agreement of King George or of the people of Great Britain in general. Secession without consent of the sovereign was not part of their law, so the action was clearly illegal and unethical and the colonists simply in the wrong, do you think? Also there is the matter of them using violence and acts of terrorism as part of their secession process. Clearly wrong, correct?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#186

Post by [deleted] »

tgv wrote: post #176
kragen wrote: post #42

Governments† burn libraries. Don't create central points of vulnerability to coercion. That multiplies the effectiveness of coercive force. Create decentralized systems. Git, not GitHub. Bitcoin, not Citibank. Email, not Gmail — although we still need to free email from DNS. Never forget how the Spanish Inquisition — the origin, in the West, of these sorts of degraded "laws" against "criminal content" — treated the J…

What's the Spanish Inquisition got to do with this? Are they in your reply because of the word "Spanish", as in "the union between the people of Arragon, Castille and the very same Catalunya, who (re)conquered the Iberian peninsula?" > governments burn libraries Not really. > Catalan separatists are ... pedophiles Is there really anyone who said so? Or are we a bit hyperbolical today?

[deleted]

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#187

Post by commandlinefan »

acollins1331 wrote: post #111
iagovar wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I was from the police I'd probably want to block the chance to coordinate such attacks, not only do an investigation to track certain individuals. What would be the point to spend many resources to put a guy or a few of them in jail when they can be easily replaced.

Sure, that's what you'd want. And everyone in the police here wants video and audio recording of every persons movement at all times so they can solve every crime. Sometimes the police want bad things.

"A police officer's job is only easy in a police state"

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#188

Post by dannyw »

DangerousPie wrote: post #140

It was a warrant issued by a Spanish court that Github legally had to comply with. You can be angry at the court for issuing such a warrant but you can't be angry at Github for complying. They are not above the law, even if they may disagree with it.

US companies have no legal obligation to comply with a Spanish court order. A MLAT must be arranged and approved before US companies have a legal obligation.

GitHub's compliance with the court order was voluntarily and discretionary; just like how if the North Korea courts told me to shut down my site, you have every right to say no.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#189

Post by gjulianm »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #184
hummel wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watching your Github profile I see you are from the US, time to get back to history classes and time to fight for the freedom of expression on your own country, which is ranked on 49 on Press Freedom Index 2019 https://rsf.org/en/ranking next to Senegal and Romania.

Pretty meaningless index when American citizens are free to promote a separatist agenda and the higher ranked Spaniards can't.

Yes we can. There are independentists in parliament. The president of Catalonia is an independentist. Pro-independence demonstrations happen and there are no arrests just by going there (except in riots, but that's because the police force is way too uncontrolled, not because of a general freedom of expression issue).

This takedown was to an app that was used to organize a blockage of a major airport. I do not agree with the takedown, but I do not think it's such a clear cut that it's 'freedom of expression'.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#190

Post by RustyBucket »

The app has nothing to do with freedom of speech. It is used to coordinate a thousand or so semi drunk teens who clash with police, burn trash containers, block airport and highways for fun. Those who wanted to express their dis-/agreement with gothernment position had several half a million people peaceful protests.
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