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Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

catalannews.com

141–150 of 154 posts

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#141
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But professorTuring did not say a cause, he said "Catalonian cause". You are right in that promoting criminal activities can help a cause in very specific cases, but I don't think is relevant here. Gandhi, MLK, etc had legitimate reasons to break the law. Unless the Catalan independentist movement can convince the international community that they also have a legitimate reason, taking the law in their hands will not…

I think the burden of proof in the discussion here is on those advancing a position, but neither the allegations nor the evidence presented here are convincing. As I said I have no particular knowledge of or interest in the cause, I'm just commenting on what I've read here. It seems to me that you and professorTuring would like to convince us, and if so, you should present stronger evidence of more serious crimes tha…

I told you how you could make your own opinion based on sources from the independentist movement because I think that would be fairer than me trying to convince you, but I perfectly understand that you don't want to spend your whole day making a difficult research based on some vague indications so that you can agree with my comment.

Some of the evidence you ask for include the mishandling of public funds, use of personal data for their own benefit, or breaking the laws of their own regional government such that they could pass new laws without the required number of votes (because they only had a very tight majority). Plus disobeying court orders, which is something that I insist can only be accepted in very special circumstances and this is not one of them. I know these are not the most serious crimes in history by any means, that's why they will be on the street early next year.

But what I really hate about this is the image they spread of my country. I do not mind if you sympathize with their movement, or even actively support it, but I mind if you agree with their view of Spain as an authoritarian country just for not letting them to do whatever they want ignoring their own laws and a large portion of Catalan people. I do not mind if they want to fight for independence, even if I find it terribly stupid, but I do not like feeling insulted. And I constantly feel insulted by these people.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#142
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the burden of proof in the discussion here is on those advancing a position, but neither the allegations nor the evidence presented here are convincing. As I said I have no particular knowledge of or interest in the cause, I'm just commenting on what I've read here. It seems to me that you and professorTuring would like to convince us, and if so, you should present stronger evidence of more serious crimes tha…

I told you how you could make your own opinion based on sources from the independentist movement because I think that would be fairer than me trying to convince you, but I perfectly understand that you don't want to spend your whole day making a difficult research based on some vague indications so that you can agree with my comment. Some of the evidence you ask for include the mishandling of public funds, use of per…

> but I mind if you agree with their view of Spain as an authoritarian country

There's a very ugly side to Spain, just as there is a very ugly side to Japan, France, the USA, Russia, Australia (my own country) and, I'm sure, the Catalan independence movement too. There is an ugly side to any entity when it feels its power is threatened and when it tries to suppress people's freedoms in response.

Viewing this story from abroad and following it fairly well I have been disgusted and sickened by certain actions taken by the Spanish government, the corrupt Spanish judiciary, and the support shown by a percentage of the Spanish people for those acts. So yes, my view of Spain as an authoritarian country has strengthened based on real acts that have taken place. If you don't want people to form that view then you should be doing what is necessary in your country to call out that bad behaviour from your own side (presuming you are for the Spanish state remaining in its present form). That is the stance I take when I see my own country behaving badly. (It should also be the stance that Catalan independence supporters should take against any bad behaviour by their own movement too).

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#143
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain would just cease to exist. Spain will cease to exist anyway given the trajectory of the EU. I don't know why anyone in Spain seems to care about Catalonian independence. They seem to want to immediately turn around and (re)join the EU, which is rapidly taking over more and more areas of governmental policy. EU forbids different regions from being more "competitive" than others (see their demands to the UK) and…

> I don't know why anyone in Spain seems to care about Catalonian independence. I never cared, but I do care about the image they are projecting of my country (specially as someone living abroad). Moreover, they are doing great getting the worse of everyone. I never liked nationalism (including Spanish nationalism) and now it's worse than ever. And I do not like anti-riot police, and I do not want my government to cl…

> And I think I could accept all this if it was for a good reason, but I think it is just stupid nonsense (did we learn nothing from Brexit?).

It's not for you to decide that. If a majority of people in a region (yes, still to be conclusively shown for Catalonia) wish to have independence and their own self-government then they should have it. Otherwise you are promoting tyranny. You're like the husband who tells his wife that she is wrong for wanting a divorce because he's still happy with the marriage. Actually, the principle of indissoluble marriage has a lot in common with Section 2 of the Preliminary Title in the Spanish Constitution:

> The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation

Both principles of indissoluble unity - both in marriage and in the constitution of a state - are expressions of tyranny.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#144
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede. Indeed. But in spain this is just impossible. As a staunch pro-independence supporter, I'm not for that option as a matter of principle, but of practicality. If the spanish state saw catalan language as a legitimate part of its own culture, I would feel comfortable being spanish. Yet, it seems to me absolutely impossible and utop…

The Catalan language really was in risk during the dictatorship, but during democracy its status has constantly improved. Nowadays, Catalan is spoken by the majority of Catalonian people, taught in schools, used (even required) in public institutions... How is independence your only way to avoid that it disappears??? You are just telling lies. I like the different languages. I have lived in Spain and other countries…

> But if I am talking with someone that can speak a language I speak, and this person insists using one I don't understand, I indeed find it impolite.

Sorry but this is a position of arrogance and entitlement. No-one is obliged to talk to you and if they don't want to do so in a language which has been forced upon their culture at the cost of the indigenous language then they are completely in the right to do so.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#145

OP here. Given that I posted this, I think I that I should share my opinion. I am Spanish and against Catalonian independence, so hopelesly biased, I fear. I want to keep this short and cut to what I believe is the essence of the problem and how I think that all this will play out. Given the power assymetry, hugely favourable to Spain, the only chance for Catalonian independence is to get external support that will t…

Thanks for sharing your opinion and being open about your bias and reasoning. Thanks also for pointing out the power asymmetry, as this seems to be often left out from the equation and is IMHO a key point. I think we can analyze the same problem from many different points of view and depth, but ultimately for me it boils down to it being immoral for some groups of people to prevent other groups of people from attaini…

Thank you for your polite reply. You have a point, although I disagree that the pro-independence politians are acting morally. Spain, at pains to act within the bounds of legality, is held to much higher moral standards, and here is another assymetry, this one favourable to and constantly exploited by the independentists, who seem free from the constraints of legality.

What is shown in the international media is just the tip of the iceberg. It doesn't show the independentists' feeling of superiority (rather than equality). I have read the pro-independence media, and their reader's comments, in Catalonian, to get an unfiltered view of their thinking, and the difference with what they project internationally is glaring. The Catalonian constitution, approved by their parliament is spite of its illegality, which they plan to adopt in the case of independence, has severe restrictions on press freedom and judiciary independence, far less democratic than the current situation in Catalonia. They brand Spaniards from other regions living and working in Catalonia as "inmigrants"; Catalonians in other regions of Spain are treated there as equals.

Maybe I am too cynical and influenced by realpolitik, but I am afraid that real world politics works mostly according to interests (and power; rules are made according to these) rather than just morals (although these too are a factor when it comes to interests, as Machiavello said it is very important to hold the moral high ground). I find this approach unpleasant, but also think that it allows one to better understand how the world actually works, rather than how it should work (I am powerless to change the world, but at least I can try to understand it).

Democracy is often used by western governments and groups as a very powerful emotional propaganda tool (for the first time AFIK, in the first world war against the kaiser). I remember when Iraq and Afghanistan were invaded in the name of democracy. The real motives were never stated in the open, they never are, what matters is to create a narrative that the masses will buy; it is only possible to understand what happens by taking a global view and considering multiple factors (of course I don't claim that I do really understand, I just mistrust whatever is claimed by the media of both sides and suspect the real motives are often hidden).

Is my view destructive? What if allowing a referendum results in the collapse of Spanish cohesion, very likely. Wouldn't the resulting turmoil be more destructive that the status quo (which I admit is far from ideal, but IMHO the lesser evil)? This is what I mean by absolutes, I believe that one should approach complicated problems globally, rather than by optimizing for just for one local property, even if it's a noble one such as democracy or self-determination. Look at the Arab Spring, there are many lessons here.

I like Bertrand Russell's take on liberalism: a difficult balance between maximizing personal freedom while preserving social cohesion.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#146

OP here. Given that I posted this, I think I that I should share my opinion. I am Spanish and against Catalonian independence, so hopelesly biased, I fear. I want to keep this short and cut to what I believe is the essence of the problem and how I think that all this will play out. Given the power assymetry, hugely favourable to Spain, the only chance for Catalonian independence is to get external support that will t…

Spain would just cease to exist. Spain will cease to exist anyway given the trajectory of the EU. I don't know why anyone in Spain seems to care about Catalonian independence. They seem to want to immediately turn around and (re)join the EU, which is rapidly taking over more and more areas of governmental policy. EU forbids different regions from being more "competitive" than others (see their demands to the UK) and…

I strongly disagree with your bleak view of the EU. Membership is actually one of Spain's biggest strengths, as are other alliances, like NATO.

Of course, there is a tradeoff here, members loose a degree of independence, and there are serious problems with the design of the Euro, laid bare by the financial crisis.

But one should also compare the current situation with the alternative, which would be european nations facing US, Russia and China on their own. Their bargainaing power and influence would be severely reduced, as the UK is about to find out.

I see this current trend against international alliances as part of the larger wave of populism and nationalism in the wake of the financial crisis, where people are looking for whom to blame, and the real culprits (crony capitalism) are too happy by the distraction: career polititians, and the rest of the world in the US (how else to explain Trump?), the EU in the UK, the West in Russia, and, more to the point, Spain in Catalonia.

Much of this talk of the EU being against its members' interests is Kremlin propaganda, given that much of Russia's weakness lies in the strength of western alliances, so it is in their interest to weaken or break them.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#147
post #144
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Catalan language really was in risk during the dictatorship, but during democracy its status has constantly improved. Nowadays, Catalan is spoken by the majority of Catalonian people, taught in schools, used (even required) in public institutions... How is independence your only way to avoid that it disappears??? You are just telling lies. I like the different languages. I have lived in Spain and other countries…

> But if I am talking with someone that can speak a language I speak, and this person insists using one I don't understand, I indeed find it impolite. Sorry but this is a position of arrogance and entitlement. No-one is obliged to talk to you and if they don't want to do so in a language which has been forced upon their culture at the cost of the indigenous language then they are completely in the right to do so.

Sorry but I think that not doing what you can to facilitate communication with your interlocutor is impolite. Including not responding. Of course there is no obligation, but I'd find it impolite.

I travel a lot, I have lived in different countries. If everybody tried to impose their local languages to foreign people, this would be impossible. Languages are tools for communication, using them as signs of identity is the arrogant part.

By the way, calling Catalan an indigenous language is ridiculous.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#148

Tsunami Democratic is being investigated by Spanish authorities for promoting public disorders and criminal activities. So Spain is making what is need to to prevent criminal activities and (further) public disorders in Catalonia. I don't know how some Catalonian citizens are letting themselves be influenced by some corrupt politicians trying to enrich theirselves and avoid prison. Check out democracy index in Spain…

The democracy index for Spain has been on the free fall for some years now. Whether Spain will return to a democratic approach to resolving civic and political issues rather than the current authoritarian approach that curtails civil freedoms for all Spaniards--not just Catalans--remains to be seen. As for Tsunami Democratic, I'm afraid news reports haven't been fair. The disorders and criminal activities--which by t…

Can you support your statements with evidence? The data I provided is from 2018 and you are making assumptions based on a bunch of people in a country (2MM vs 50MM).

What is happening here is that some independentists patrons are paying for PR around the world and you, guys, are only getting one part of the story.

You don't know nothing about they teaching fake history to kids, stating Colon is Catalonian, stating that the American flag is based on Catalonian flag... These guys are ridiculous and they have been brainwashing their population for decades.

We even have Junqueras (one of the leaders of the movement) telling that genetically, the Catalonian people are better than Spanish people so they need to separate.

Today, you have a lot of young people defending what they have been taught without knowing they are defending a bunch of lies.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#149
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain would just cease to exist. Spain will cease to exist anyway given the trajectory of the EU. I don't know why anyone in Spain seems to care about Catalonian independence. They seem to want to immediately turn around and (re)join the EU, which is rapidly taking over more and more areas of governmental policy. EU forbids different regions from being more "competitive" than others (see their demands to the UK) and…

> I don't know why anyone in Spain seems to care about Catalonian independence. I never cared, but I do care about the image they are projecting of my country (specially as someone living abroad). Moreover, they are doing great getting the worse of everyone. I never liked nationalism (including Spanish nationalism) and now it's worse than ever. And I do not like anti-riot police, and I do not want my government to cl…

If tomorrow the Spanish state disappears and we just become one big European country, I would not mind at all.

I have unfortunate news for you.

People hating larger governmental forces that control them isn't something weirdly unique to Spain or European nations. It is a part of the universal human condition.

If all existing European nations were abolished and merged into a new EU "country", guess what? The "nationalists" would hate the EU instead. This already happens in fact. Why do you think Brexit won? It won because so many people really don't like the EU and the way it works. The entire British population was threatened by its own government with ruination and told anyone who voted Leave was thick and racist, and Leave still won. Imagine how much bigger the result would have been if the government hadn't relied on such aggressive tactics.

Worse still, people who think they aren't "nationalist" would also be filled with hate, but towards imaginary external enemies instead. Go listen to the people who run the EU. Listen to people like Juncker, Verhofstadt and Merkel. They can't stop talking about the EU empire and the threats posed by "China, Russia and the United States". The USA is rather different to China but to the new Europeans, it's just another foreign enemy.

The way to stop people hating on each other is to help them resolve their differences amicably. Lots of votes, lots of tiny nation-states or even city states, and yes lots of borders, ideally of the smartest possible type to ensure they're hardly noticeable. In the end, forcing everyone to comply with one small group's set of preferences will always create big tensions. The solution is thus not fewer countries, but more.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain would just cease to exist. Spain will cease to exist anyway given the trajectory of the EU. I don't know why anyone in Spain seems to care about Catalonian independence. They seem to want to immediately turn around and (re)join the EU, which is rapidly taking over more and more areas of governmental policy. EU forbids different regions from being more "competitive" than others (see their demands to the UK) and…

I strongly disagree with your bleak view of the EU. Membership is actually one of Spain's biggest strengths, as are other alliances, like NATO. Of course, there is a tradeoff here, members loose a degree of independence, and there are serious problems with the design of the Euro, laid bare by the financial crisis. But one should also compare the current situation with the alternative, which would be european nations…

Russia has a GDP smaller than Italy's. It's a threat only in the minds of a very particular segment of society that seeks to blame it anytime they lose an argument. "Kremlin propaganda" isn't responsible for Trump or Brexit and may well not exist at all, as every attempt to reveal it keeps disappearing into puffs of smoke. What exists are arguments Euro-federalists keep losing for reasons they can't understand, so they seek to blame shadowy conspiracies that are always just out of reach of proof.

This is visible in your own post! My view of the EU is neither bleak nor non-bleak. It's a simple factual statement of what the EU is and what it's becoming, as stated very clearly and repeatedly by the people who run it. The goal of the EU is to merge countries together.

Do you believe the EU is not a federalist project? That its goal is not to become a new country? How do you explain the ever growing power of the Commission, the new Army, the flag, the laws that make disrespecting the flag illegal, the continual push for ever more integration, the explicit talking points you repeat here that the EU must "unite" to "face US, Russia and China"?

The end state is not to lose a "degree" of independence, as you put it. It's to lose all independence completely. That is the end result of ever closer union, as the treaties word it, and that goal can be seen in the actions of the EU every day. It's not standing still. It's unifying armies, tax rules, trying to create new immigration law and so on, often without adjusting the treaties because they know that would trigger automatic referendums in some countries that they are guaranteed to lose.

Finally, the EU is not an alliance. Alliances are agreements between separate entities to support each other within some precisely defined scope, like military defence in case of invasion. The EU is something more: a movement to merge the separate entities together completely in all conceivable areas, until there's nothing left to be allied anymore because they're the same thing. Rejection of the EU is not a rejection of alliances, it's the opposite - it's a preference for alliances.

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