Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia • Hacker News Board

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#71

Post by johnsteward » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 12:27 PM UTC

professorTuring wrote: post #36

Tsunami Democratic is being investigated by Spanish authorities for promoting public disorders and criminal activities. So Spain is making what is need to to prevent criminal activities and (further) public disorders in Catalonia. I don't know how some Catalonian citizens are letting themselves be influenced by some corrupt politicians trying to enrich theirselves and avoid prison. Check out democracy index in Spain…

The democracy index for Spain has been on the free fall for some years now. Whether Spain will return to a democratic approach to resolving civic and political issues rather than the current authoritarian approach that curtails civil freedoms for all Spaniards--not just Catalans--remains to be seen.

As for Tsunami Democratic, I'm afraid news reports haven't been fair. The disorders and criminal activities--which by the way the Spanish courts are labeling as "terrorism" despite any evidence--have been, by and large, carried out by infiltrated police agents. There is plenty of video footage online demonstrating case after case of police agents dressed as demonstrators, emerging from police vans in a side alley, joining a demonstration and engaging in deplorable behavior.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#72

Post by reallydontask » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 12:28 PM UTC

UserIsUnused wrote: post #32

ahachete wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many alleged reasons why some people from Catalonia want to secede from Spain. They all probably boil down to the perspective that they are a "rich" region and they will do better on their own. Similar to Brexit. Probably, same wrong perspective. Irrespective of this, Spanish Constitution has a very strong enforcement of Spain's sovereignty and unity. It belongs to all Spanish people. So if that is to be al…

They could have gone the legal route, and push to amend the constitution first. Not doing so shows the manipulative/dishonest nature of the leaders.

I'm not sure what they thought that was going to happen, specially given that actual support for independence hardly ever tops 50%.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#73

Post by ahachete » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 12:28 PM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #54

ahachete wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many alleged reasons why some people from Catalonia want to secede from Spain. They all probably boil down to the perspective that they are a "rich" region and they will do better on their own. Similar to Brexit. Probably, same wrong perspective. Irrespective of this, Spanish Constitution has a very strong enforcement of Spain's sovereignty and unity. It belongs to all Spanish people. So if that is to be al…

> They all probably boil down to the perspective that they are a "rich" region and they will do better on their own. All of them? That is ridiculous. It's a region that has maintained its own language since the founding of the modern Spanish state, they clearly have some cultural differences with their parent country.

So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it makes Spain a richer and culturally richer place. I love this diversity.

But this is not related to secession at all.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#74

Post by ahbyb » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 12:29 PM UTC

darkwater wrote: post #43

ahbyb wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's something similar to north/south Italy: they are tired of sharing their monies with the poorer regions of Spain, which they regard as lazy and stupid.

Being an Italian living in Catalonia for a few years now I absolutely say that it's not the same at all. While money is an important factor (obviously) it's framed in completely different manner: former italian Lega Nord independentism is based on feeling/being superior on both the work & money side. And in fact Lega (Nord) was and it's still a right-wing, racist and xenophobic party. OTOH the independentist parties…

>and the economic side is more on the "we get +50% of our money out and what comes back cannot even cover the most basic needs"

Then imagine how it is for the poor regions of Spain.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#75

Post by tcard » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 12:30 PM UTC

UserIsUnused wrote: post #25

mikece wrote: post #4

Slightly off topic, but is there a good, short summary of why Catalonia wants to separate from Spain? I would think this would enhance the standing of the EU as it weakens the power of one of its larger members. Heck, wouldn’t it be in the interest of nefarious EU types to have countries like Spain, Italy, Germany, and France and their regions/states/departments become member States or autonomous regions within the E…

Just Spain not EU. It's the typical second biggest city not having internal relevance compared to the capital even though it's as good, together with the common claim of everything happens in the capital, decisions are there, most money stays there, etc. Also, it's slightly different culture, language, etc. And around WW2 time, there was an actual civil war. Discontent keeps happening, catalonian patriots gets in pow…

> And around WW2 time, there was an actual civil war.

Not over the Catalonia issue, by any strecht. (Although Catalanists did take sides.)

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#76

Post by ahachete » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 12:31 PM UTC

AllegedAlec wrote: post #42

UserIsUnused wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could have gone the legal route, and push to amend the constitution first. Not doing so shows the manipulative/dishonest nature of the leaders.

Your reply shows your manipulative and dishonest nature. There are very good reasons why the Catalans would not go for a push to amend the constitution. - They believe it's a lost cause, since they are heavily outnumbered and the rest of Spain would be insane to just accede to losing 30+% of their wealth - They know that the government of Spain will never let this happen. - They do not accept the authority of the gov…

> - They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution.

You are right that they don't do, specially the authorities there. And this is particularly concerning and completely anti democratic. It cannot be tolerated. They are out of the law, and many have been convicted because of this. Every thing needs to be done under the law. And if you don't like it, within the law, you need to push to change it. It's the only way.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#77

Post by joscas » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 12:31 PM UTC

sgt wrote: post #26

mikece wrote: post #4

Slightly off topic, but is there a good, short summary of why Catalonia wants to separate from Spain? I would think this would enhance the standing of the EU as it weakens the power of one of its larger members. Heck, wouldn’t it be in the interest of nefarious EU types to have countries like Spain, Italy, Germany, and France and their regions/states/departments become member States or autonomous regions within the E…

Why doesn't Spain just give them more autonomy? Or is Spain actually the "bad guys" here ?

Catalans voted in a referendum a new regional constitution which was overturned by the Spanish constitutional court. This triggered support for independence. Catalans don't manage, their taxes, nor their airports, or their trains. Everything that really matters is managed by the central government, it's self-rule on paper but not in reality.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#78

Post by throwaway8756 » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 12:31 PM UTC

darkwater wrote: post #43

ahbyb wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's something similar to north/south Italy: they are tired of sharing their monies with the poorer regions of Spain, which they regard as lazy and stupid.

Being an Italian living in Catalonia for a few years now I absolutely say that it's not the same at all. While money is an important factor (obviously) it's framed in completely different manner: former italian Lega Nord independentism is based on feeling/being superior on both the work & money side. And in fact Lega (Nord) was and it's still a right-wing, racist and xenophobic party. OTOH the independentist parties…

Unfortunately I have to say it's not 100% true. The real independence movement was started from the right, look for "Artur Mas". The main slogan back then was "Spain steal from us". It's true though that Communists parties always wanted the independence, but the right parties have driven this process from the very beginning.

Lega Nord supports openly the independence of Catalunya because they are based on the same principles. Sure, there're differences, but the main idea is that they don't want to support poorer regions. Obviously they are not going to tell you that, but that's what originated the conflict.

In fact, some people in Catalunya (obviously a minority) were openly racist with other regions in Spain years ago (e.g., Extremadura, Andalucia), they even made ads in newspapers. Of course, this is not something that's really talked about.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#79

Post by swebs » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 12:32 PM UTC

arijun wrote: post #53

throwaway8756 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, I think we already are in a point of no-return. Not necessarily to the independence though, but who knows...

What's the alternative to independence if they cannot return to the status quo?

Civil war.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#80

Post by olodus » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 12:32 PM UTC

I was interested in this because I remember there being work to get a mesh network using ipfs or something running in Catalonia. But the article mentions nothing about it. Anyone knows if that is still ongoing? Found something from 10 months ago about it here on HN. Would think that would only have gotten more relevant these days. And if it is blocking they are worried about...