Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

catalannews.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 154 posts

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#131

Post by DuskStar »

kuu wrote: post #52
AllegedAlec wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your reply shows your manipulative and dishonest nature. There are very good reasons why the Catalans would not go for a push to amend the constitution. - They believe it's a lost cause, since they are heavily outnumbered and the rest of Spain would be insane to just accede to losing 30+% of their wealth - They know that the government of Spain will never let this happen. - They do not accept the authority of the gov…

And your reply shows how selfish you are. As the majority does not want to do as I want, I take my way, without any other consideration. Even the catalan people is not supporting this as a majority, you're ruling without considering the 50% of catalonian people.

The majority of the British Empire would not have supported the right of the American colonies to secede. Does that mean it was wrong of them to do so?

Should the Americans have instead pursued their cause in Parliament, where they were unrepresented?

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#132

Post by DuskStar »

_0ffh wrote: post #104
arijun wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that it's obvious that the people outside of Catalonia should have a say in Catalonia's secession (which would mean it wouldn't matter what the majority of Spain wants, just the majority of Catalans) Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned that 90% the vote in Catalonia was 90% for secession, and included half the population. It seems unlikely to me that of the half that didn't vote, more than 90…

It was an illegal, explicitly forbidden referendum that voted 90% for secession. That anyone even bothered to turn up, just to vote "no" is a small miracle. So, yeah, it seems very likely to me that >90% of those who didn't vote at all would have voted against.

For more than 50% of the population to oppose secession, you'd need a voting turnout of ~90%, and for all the people who had not previously voted before to vote against secession. (50% turnout with 90% for secession -> 45% of voting population voting for secession)

Are voter turnouts normally that high in Spain?

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#133

Post by DuskStar »

aspaviento wrote: post #85
UserIsUnused wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just Spain not EU. It's the typical second biggest city not having internal relevance compared to the capital even though it's as good, together with the common claim of everything happens in the capital, decisions are there, most money stays there, etc. Also, it's slightly different culture, language, etc. And around WW2 time, there was an actual civil war. Discontent keeps happening, catalonian patriots gets in pow…

> they do a referendum anyway, (90% win for getting out) they do an illegal referendum so that 90% means nothing when many people didn't vote (obviously you are going to take a favorable result when only the people interested on it vote)

For more than 50% of the population to oppose secession, you'd need a voting turnout of ~90%, and for all the people who had not previously voted before to vote against secession. (50% turnout with 90% for secession -> 45% of voting population voting for secession)

If you get 100% turnout, and no one who voted in the referendum changes their vote, you'd need 91% of the new voters to vote to remain a part of Spain. Is it truly that implausible that some of the "leave" voters would have stayed away from an illegal referendum too?

Assuming that the results of the illegal referendum were accurate of course.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#134

Post by yiyus »

leereeves wrote: post #119
professorTuring wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like it or not, freedom of speech and assembly Completely agree, but the investigation goes toward how this group is using this assemblies to promote disorders, chaos and unlawful activities. Each of the manifestation in Catalonia and in Madrid have been approved and we have been able to see hundred of people fighting for their beliefs. We will agree that promoting criminal activities doesn't help Catalonian cause,…

> We will agree that promoting criminal activities doesn't help Catalonian cause, and that should be investigated. The American Revolution was a criminal activity. Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and Nelson Mandela were all deemed criminal and jailed. The protests in Hong Kong right now are considered criminal activities. So no, we will not agree that "promoting criminal activities doesn't help" a cause. I have no opinio…

But professorTuring did not say a cause, he said "Catalonian cause".

You are right in that promoting criminal activities can help a cause in very specific cases, but I don't think is relevant here. Gandhi, MLK, etc had legitimate reasons to break the law. Unless the Catalan independentist movement can convince the international community that they also have a legitimate reason, taking the law in their hands will not help them with their objective.

By the way, the ruling government has never called the independence movement criminal. It's perfectly legal to support independence, demonstrate, create, fund and promote independentist political parties, try to change laws to achieve self-determination... All that is perfectly legal in Spain. Disobeying court orders or mishandling public funds, however, it is not legal in Spain or any other country I know.

You ask for a different approach to make a case against Catalonian independence, but I do not think this is fair. The burden of proof is not on those who think they should not break the law, but in those who think they should. If you want to form an opinion by yourself I suggest you to try to find the reasons they have to want independence, from their own sources, but crosschecking any "historical facts" you find. If after that you think they have a legitimate reason to break the law, I'd like to hear it.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#135

Post by yiyus »

repolfx wrote: post #129
charlysl wrote: post #91

OP here. Given that I posted this, I think I that I should share my opinion. I am Spanish and against Catalonian independence, so hopelesly biased, I fear. I want to keep this short and cut to what I believe is the essence of the problem and how I think that all this will play out. Given the power assymetry, hugely favourable to Spain, the only chance for Catalonian independence is to get external support that will t…

Spain would just cease to exist. Spain will cease to exist anyway given the trajectory of the EU. I don't know why anyone in Spain seems to care about Catalonian independence. They seem to want to immediately turn around and (re)join the EU, which is rapidly taking over more and more areas of governmental policy. EU forbids different regions from being more "competitive" than others (see their demands to the UK) and…

> I don't know why anyone in Spain seems to care about Catalonian independence.

I never cared, but I do care about the image they are projecting of my country (specially as someone living abroad). Moreover, they are doing great getting the worse of everyone.

I never liked nationalism (including Spanish nationalism) and now it's worse than ever. And I do not like anti-riot police, and I do not want my government to close web sites, and I do not like to see Barcelona burning, and I do not like the hate I see in the eyes of the independentists when they talk about Spain, neither I like the hate I see in the eyes of some people when they talk about the Catalan independentists or even about Catalonia. And I think I could accept all this if it was for a good reason, but I think it is just stupid nonsense (did we learn nothing from Brexit?). We should be moving forward towards some kind of United States of Europe, and worrying about doing something with all these people from Africa who keep coming here, not about breaking apart and stupid flags. I get many questions from friends from all over the world, and I do not know how to answer them, I just feel shame. That's why I care. If tomorrow the Spanish state disappears and we just become one big European country, I would not mind at all.

By the way, you are right about what would happen if an independent Catalonia joint the EU. As a wealthy region, they would have to pay. However, why would the EU allow to join a wealthy country who just decided to break their own laws in order to not subsidize poorer regions?

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#136

Post by AllegedAlec »

ahachete wrote: post #76
AllegedAlec wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your reply shows your manipulative and dishonest nature. There are very good reasons why the Catalans would not go for a push to amend the constitution. - They believe it's a lost cause, since they are heavily outnumbered and the rest of Spain would be insane to just accede to losing 30+% of their wealth - They know that the government of Spain will never let this happen. - They do not accept the authority of the gov…

> - They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution. You are right that they don't do, specially the authorities there. And this is particularly concerning and completely anti democratic . It cannot be tolerated. They are out of the law, and many have been convicted because of this. Every thing needs to be done under the law. And if you don't like it, within the la…

> And this is particularly concerning and completely anti democratic.

It is only anti democratic if you accept that this is the way the majority of your people want this. These people think that it's a tyrany. That's it's one laid upon them by an outside majority does not help.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#137

Post by yiyus »

enriquto wrote: post #118
ahachete wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you read me wrong. I'm not denying that cultural reasons might be valid to support secession. I'm saying that having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede. Indeed, in my opinion, it is the opposite and leads to a richer and more diverse country.

> having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede. Indeed. But in spain this is just impossible. As a staunch pro-independence supporter, I'm not for that option as a matter of principle, but of practicality. If the spanish state saw catalan language as a legitimate part of its own culture, I would feel comfortable being spanish. Yet, it seems to me absolutely impossible and utop…

The Catalan language really was in risk during the dictatorship, but during democracy its status has constantly improved. Nowadays, Catalan is spoken by the majority of Catalonian people, taught in schools, used (even required) in public institutions... How is independence your only way to avoid that it disappears??? You are just telling lies.

I like the different languages. I have lived in Spain and other countries where they have different languages, and I like that people make everything possible to conserve their languages and local dialects. And I think all this with my Spanish psyche, no less. But if I am talking with someone that can speak a language I speak, and this person insists using one I don't understand, I indeed find it impolite.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#138

Post by yiyus »

DuskStar wrote: post #131
kuu wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your reply shows how selfish you are. As the majority does not want to do as I want, I take my way, without any other consideration. Even the catalan people is not supporting this as a majority, you're ruling without considering the 50% of catalonian people.

The majority of the British Empire would not have supported the right of the American colonies to secede. Does that mean it was wrong of them to do so? Should the Americans have instead pursued their cause in Parliament, where they were unrepresented?

The difference here is that Catalonia is an integral part of Spain, not a colony. They are perfectly well represented in every institution, and have in fact had a central role in most governments since the end of the dictatorship. Both situations are totally different. And, by the way, they did not only break Spanish laws in their road to independence, they also broke the rules of their own regional parliament, laws they had created.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#139

Post by yiyus »

DuskStar wrote: post #132
_0ffh wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was an illegal, explicitly forbidden referendum that voted 90% for secession. That anyone even bothered to turn up, just to vote "no" is a small miracle. So, yeah, it seems very likely to me that >90% of those who didn't vote at all would have voted against.

For more than 50% of the population to oppose secession, you'd need a voting turnout of ~90%, and for all the people who had not previously voted before to vote against secession. (50% turnout with 90% for secession -> 45% of voting population voting for secession) Are voter turnouts normally that high in Spain?

The referendum was totally out of control. I will always condemn the violent response of the police that day, but the referendum was a total nonsense. You can easily find images of boxes left on the street and people "voting" without any control. And the counting (and whole organization) was done by those who wanted independence. You cannot trust those numbers.

There were regional elections on December 2017 and the independentist parties put together got 70 seats of 135 (less than the 72 they had before). More recently, in the elections for the national government this April, they only got 22 seats of 48 (some of the independentists refused to participate in Spanish elections after declaring independence, but turnout was still very high, more than 75%). The independentists never talk about these numbers, only the 90%. And I think that, many of them, seriously believe they are the 90%.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#140

Post by leereeves »

yiyus wrote: post #134
leereeves wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We will agree that promoting criminal activities doesn't help Catalonian cause, and that should be investigated. The American Revolution was a criminal activity. Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and Nelson Mandela were all deemed criminal and jailed. The protests in Hong Kong right now are considered criminal activities. So no, we will not agree that "promoting criminal activities doesn't help" a cause. I have no opinio…

But professorTuring did not say a cause, he said "Catalonian cause". You are right in that promoting criminal activities can help a cause in very specific cases, but I don't think is relevant here. Gandhi, MLK, etc had legitimate reasons to break the law. Unless the Catalan independentist movement can convince the international community that they also have a legitimate reason, taking the law in their hands will not…

I think the burden of proof in the discussion here is on those advancing a position, but neither the allegations nor the evidence presented here are convincing.

As I said I have no particular knowledge of or interest in the cause, I'm just commenting on what I've read here. It seems to me that you and professorTuring would like to convince us, and if so, you should present stronger evidence of more serious crimes than disobeying the very government whose legitimacy the independence movement is challenging.

Post reply on HN