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Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

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Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#491

Post by dcabrejas »

vkou wrote: post #455
pvaldes wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me, in this case will be war At difference than Norway, there is a silent majority in Catalonia that is fuming. They had being opressed in the last decades by separatism. Now they can't exit home without finding a burning barricade and the pavement vandalised, can't go to work without finding the highway blocked by a group of clowns sit singing kumbaya, can't enter in the university without the permit of masked…

All of these things sound horrible, as do the people doing them. Why do you insist on keeping people who feel that way in the country, against their will? It's something that often puzzles me against political stances that oppose separatism. Often, they both express contempt for the people who want to leave, while at the same time, not allowing them to.

Because we know it's not the cleverest idea in the world and therefore we don't want to play that game.

No-one is opposing separatism by the way, it's just that the whole country has to agree. The catalans signed up to the constitution like everyone else.

Why should they be able to shit all over it? And by the way is less than half of catalans who want this.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#492

Post by logjammin »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #436
Discombulator wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's another topic, why can't the EU sort them out? What do you think the EU should even do about this, based on which principles? To me this is entirely unclear. There is no right to secede from a country, in fact, the territory is usually part of the identity of a country, also legally speaking.

> There is no right to secede from a country > legally speaking I don't see how any of these things matter. If there's no right, if there's no legal means, then wage war. Die trying. I'm not suggesting I support either position, but pointing out that, ultimately, laws and opinions don't matter.

_Wage war. Die trying._

Yes. That's ultimately why the Cataluña thing is a paper tiger issue: Catalans are too rich and too soft to really break away.

I'm not saying they're not allowed to have grievances, nor that they don't have any legitimate ones, but these people live extremely comfortable lives in a highly (_highly_) autonomous part of a relaxed, modern, Western nation. The independence stuff is mostly posturing. There's a good saying in Spain about this these days, roughly translating to "Catalans don't want to secede; they want to be secessionists."

It's cosplay revolution, and the rest of Spain has a good case for losing its patience with it. They want to break away, but no, sorry, the rest of the country is not allowed to have a say in the matter? Some Catalans (a minority, everyone seems to forget!) want their own country, but they also want it to be handed to them voluntarily by their "oppressor" in Madrid? They want to commit crimes but they expect not to be sent to jail?

At this point I'd almost be grateful for a Catalan Lenin of some sort; at least then we'd know there's an adult in the room.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#493

Post by yiyus »

JaumeGreen wrote: post #478
yiyus wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I am not a layer. I have zero experience about how to redact a sentence or how many witnesses should speak in court. And I am really surprised of how many experts you can find in Catalonia. But all these expert seem to ignore that these people can appeal their sentences if they don't agree with them. Spain, at difference of authoritarian countries, is subjected to international law. Do you accept these internat…

The whole world is not thinking that what our politicians did, if they did anything, was illegal. There have been plenty of interventions about the sentence, most of the ones I've heard about are against it. How justice works is to usually make the initial judgement on a low court and the recourses go to higher ones. Not on this, it was directly judged on the higher one and no recourse can be made about the judgement…

> There have been plenty of interventions about the sentence, most of the ones I've heard about are against it.

I am talking about official positions, not "interventions". Please, show me all those countries that have condemned Spain for its fascist non-democratic practices.

And, I repeat than I am not a layer, but as far as I understand this sentence can still be appealed in international courts.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#494

Post by tassl »

kgwgk wrote: post #460
tassl wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most regions on Spain had independent laws up to ~1700. While they belonged to the same Kingdom, they kept some independence. That level of independence was erased after a secession war that started on 1700, and ended with some decrees (Nueva Planta decrees, 1716 for Catalonia) that removed some "furs" and constitutions (not only in Catalonia, but everybody that supported the Hamburg's successor). And this was done u…

It’s a bit misleading to say that Catalonia (along with other regions) was “essentially annexed” by Spain three centuries ago when it had been already be part of Spain for two centuries already. Since the very creation of the Kingdom of Spain. (It’s true that it tried to secede in 1640-1652 but the result was the loss of its northern territories to France. By the way, Napoleon would actually annex Catalonia to France…

> Anyway, they level of independence that Catalonia has had in the last decades is much higher that before that “annexion”.

I am sorry to say, but this is the misleading part. You can't compare the situation hundreds of years ago with today's standards. Politically, Catalonia has less level of independence than 300 years ago. After all it had its own political institutions, courts, laws and coinage of money; all of them separated from the Kingdom of Castile.

The annex I was referring to was political, economical, legal and monetary unification after Catalonia defended a different candidate for the crown. And this is the level of autonomy that some Catalans wanted to regain.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#495

Post by tassl »

dcabrejas wrote: post #491
vkou wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of these things sound horrible, as do the people doing them. Why do you insist on keeping people who feel that way in the country, against their will? It's something that often puzzles me against political stances that oppose separatism. Often, they both express contempt for the people who want to leave, while at the same time, not allowing them to.

Because we know it's not the cleverest idea in the world and therefore we don't want to play that game. No-one is opposing separatism by the way, it's just that the whole country has to agree. The catalans signed up to the constitution like everyone else. Why should they be able to shit all over it? And by the way is less than half of catalans who want this.

> Because we know it's not the cleverest idea in the world and therefore we don't want to play that game.

This awfully sounds like:

"We know better" "Hey Catalans, you guys don't really know what's good for you, so we are taking decisions on your behalf"

All your argument can only be explained from the right of conquest.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#496

Post by tassl »

pvaldes wrote: post #448
tassl wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the time, yes. Not always. In this case, hopefully not.

Trust me, in this case will be war At difference than Norway, there is a silent majority in Catalonia that is fuming. They had being opressed in the last decades by separatism. Now they can't exit home without finding a burning barricade and the pavement vandalised, can't go to work without finding the highway blocked by a group of clowns sit singing kumbaya, can't enter in the university without the permit of masked…

Ugh.

> Trust me, in this case will be war

Sorry, after reading your text the one thing I can't do is to trust you.

> At difference than Norway, there is a silent majority in Catalonia that is fuming.

I would love to see data on that; right now, pro-independence parties are majority in the parliament and have had 10x times the amount of people on the streets (without the need of bringing outsiders). That majority is not silent, is inexistent.

> Now they can't exit home without finding a burning barricade and the pavement vandalised (...)

All that is false. I have multiple friends in Barcelona and protests have been focalized in a small area (spanish police station in Via Layetana).

> It does not really matter because they will not find a local job anymore in the 5000 companies that have quited the area by this permanent climate of confrontation

That is also false. There were some movements of the headquarters address that didn't really affected the business. The part that should be scary to all democrats is how the Spanish government created a law specifically to facilitate this change of address and how the king of Spain started calling companies to do that change.

> The rest of Spain will take some popcorn and enjoy the carnage and backstabbing on TV

This is pretty disgusting and telling.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#497

Post by tassl »

dcabrejas wrote: post #435
deltron3030 wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, economically it would be likely a disaster without quick integration into the EU on a higher level. That's another topic, why can't the EU sort them out? Or why can't they rejoin with Spain after trying and failing? I don't think that people would deal with a failure like that, they'd vote to rejoin, and the bond would be stronger afterwards. I think their movement wouldn't have gotten that much steam with a le…

> I'm interested in the mass psychology behind it, why Spain and their politicians think that it's a good idea to point out that the constitution of Spain and their unitarian aspects are untouchable. I can give you my point of view as a Spanish person. I am not part of the goverment by any means. Just a normal citizen living in the middle of the country. The infrastructure of catalunya (high speed trains, ports, high…

> The infrastructure of catalunya (high speed trains, ports, highways, etc...) have been paid by all spaniards during many, many years. Like ways, may people from all over Spain live and work in catalunya and viceversa.

That is not true. Most of the investment in trains, port, highways in Catalonia started as private investment, mostly because it was one of the first places where they were being built (roads and train are the best examples).

And in the more recent years, and considering public investment, Catalonia is clearly under invested (specially Rodalies, according to most news and friends in the area). The budget for transportation is lower than the GDP and population in average, and most years less than half the budget is executed [1][2]

In terms of airports, 1/2 of the revenue of the airports in Spain come from Barcelona's airport [3].

The more I look at the numbers, the more clear it is that Spain's interest in Catalonia is $$$.

[1] https://cincodias.elpais.com/cincodias/2018/10/02/companias/... [2] https://www.lavanguardia.com/economia/20190120/454182028060/... [3] https://www.elperiodico.com/es/economia/20150327/el-prat-aen...

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#498

Post by squiggleblaz »

vkou wrote: post #381
close04 wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still do it within the context of existing laws. Democracies rely on leadership by majority so you have to operate within that system. If it worked the way you imply what would be the limit to what you can justify with “self determination”?

> You still do it within the context of existing laws. Existing laws may be undemocratic and unjust. If your bar for secession is legality, I will have to point out that the United States should still be part of the British Empire (The revolution was illegal), Hong Kong should pipe down, and stop protesting (They are bound by CPC laws, which have ruled the protests illegal), and most of Africa should still be governe…

> There really isn't one, but six people seceeding their house is not going to be a minimally viable country for very obvious reasons. When you secede, you lose a lot of benefits, including economic, military, etc, protection from neighboring states.

I don't think that's really the right reason for saying a house isn't valid. Catalonia is a well defined, self-governing region of Spain. That means the Spaniards have already admitted that they're basically a sensible territory for being an independent state.

You could probably argue, in a case like the US, that New York isn't a valid territory for independence since it was created a long time ago prior to much settlement in the area - but the self government isn't revokable under the US constitution.

Catalonia has no such problem, since its autonomy is a relatively recent gift and is constantly revokable, so the fact that the Spanish haven't done it is proof that they think it's reasonable.

Even then, you still have places like Monaco and San Marino, which are very small. It's hard to argue they're minimally viable countries, just places history forgot, but they are independent.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#499

Post by squiggleblaz »

close04 wrote: post #465
vkou wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can stop paying taxes to the country you live in, when you leave it.

> but six people seceeding their house is not going to be a minimally viable country for very obvious reasons. So you can find a limit. What if Barcelona does not want to be in that new country (and they don’t)? Will the borders of that new country inside which you start counting votes include Barcelona against their will? What freedoms do people who want to stay with the "original" country get? They suddenly become…

That's not a fair response, since the two sides are not "Catalonia should be independent" vs "Catalonia should be part of Spain"; rather, the two sides are "Catalonia should have a right to discuss terms of independence with its own people and the rest of Spain" vs "Catalonia should not have the right to discuss terms of independence with its own people and the rest of Spain".

Catalonia should have a right to poll its people about whether to engage in negotiations, and to discuss terms with Spain (who, naturally, should represent coherent minority interests in Catalonia who do not want to depart).

Spain should have a right to say "Well, look, the border should not include Barcelona since 60% of them (or whatever the figure might be in a just and fair plebiscite) have expressed a desire to remain".

Once fair negotiations have taken place and each side has accepted that they have won some and lost some, Catalonia could have another referendum, and it might turn out that no-one wants independence from both Madrid and Barcelona.

Spain says it's illegal to start, middle and end the process. If the Catalans don't really want to separate, then starting is free. It will almost certainly increase the order and decrease the tension if they let a plebiscite go forward.

(The last paragraph is an irrelevance, since there's no evidence that a European Union of many smaller states, incapable of independently sustaining a modern armed force, will be any more likely to go to war than a European Union of fewer larger states, capable of independently sustaining modern armed forces. In fact, even putting the argument down in black on tan really brings out its ridiculousness.)

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#500

Post by kgwgk »

tassl wrote: post #494
kgwgk wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a bit misleading to say that Catalonia (along with other regions) was “essentially annexed” by Spain three centuries ago when it had been already be part of Spain for two centuries already. Since the very creation of the Kingdom of Spain. (It’s true that it tried to secede in 1640-1652 but the result was the loss of its northern territories to France. By the way, Napoleon would actually annex Catalonia to France…

> Anyway, they level of independence that Catalonia has had in the last decades is much higher that before that “annexion”. I am sorry to say, but this is the misleading part. You can't compare the situation hundreds of years ago with today's standards. Politically, Catalonia has less level of independence than 300 years ago. After all it had its own political institutions, courts, laws and coinage of money; all of t…

> You can't compare the situation hundreds of years ago with today's standards.

That’s a very good point. But for some reason some people can’t leave 1714 behind!

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