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Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

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Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#431

Post by iagovar »

ivalm wrote: post #338
ErneX wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Constitution reform is the only way and yet lots of people keep pointing to other things, this is the reason we are stuck in this situation now. That road is long and requires actual politics, what they have done is taking a shortcut to nowhere.

Catalan are not majority of Spain. They cannot themselves change the constitution, yet they do not want to stay in Spain. So it's a fake "way." The majority should not be allowed to bully the minority.

I don't understand your point. Nobody is the majority of Spain, but certainly most regions are far away of the power Catalans have in their hands, be it because of their population (gets you more seats in the central parliament) or because of the money they manage.

Every region has its own parliament and has representation in the central parliament. If you want something for your region you have to negotiate with others. And most regions have it way more difficult than Catalans to achieve whatever they want.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#432

Post by xyzzyz »

romaaeterna wrote: post #411
xyzzyz wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right to exit is an important foundation of legitimate rule. For individuals, sure, and I'm quite sure Catalonians are free to leave Spain and go somewhere else.

Good, I'm glad that we're agreed on the individual right. Now what is the right of the group? What rights does Spain as a nation have and what right to do the Catalonians have as a people, and where do such rights come from? The answer to each question will have a lot to do with how much you love each one. Someone who hates Spain and the Spanish would certainly suggest that their course is to be a grubby landlord, tr…

Now what is the right of the group? What rights does Spain as a nation have and what right to do the Catalonians have as a people, and where do such rights come from?

The nation of Spain certainly is sovereign on the territory it occupies, so it is bound only by the rules it imposes on itself (and of course, external powers which might impose other rules upon it). The nation of Spain chose to specify the rights extended to its people through the constitution, and through specific laws. From that, Catalonians, as part of the Spanish nation and subject to its sovereignty for as long as they reside under its jurisdiction, stem the rights Catalonians have as people.

Look, I'm not a lover or a hater of Spain, but what I learned so far about how the world works is that it is divided into countries, which set the rules, called law, on their territories, and get to enforce it. If you don't like the rules, usually there's a mechanism to change those, but if you can't make it work through that mechanism, your only option is to assert your own sovereignty, and hope to prevail over the existing contender. So far, the separatists in Catalonia hasn't been successful neither the former nor the latter. I might sympathize with them, but certainly I do not think that they have any right whatsoever to secede.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#433

Post by tassl »

pvaldes wrote: post #420
tassl wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All independence movement start with laws that are not existing.

And then there is always an independence war

A lot of the time, yes. Not always. In this case, hopefully not.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#434

Post by tassl »

kgwgk wrote: post #428
rndgermandude wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK is tightly integrated into the EU economical and political system. They are breaking away unilaterally. The reason they can do so is that they wouldn't have entered in the first place if there was no instrument to leave again like this (Article 50). The Catalans never voluntarily agreed to be part of Spain as far as I know. They were essentially annexed a long time ago. And yet Spain says they have to stay no…

> The Catalans never voluntarily agreed to be part of Spain as far as I know. They were essentially annexed a long time ago. When did that happen?

Most regions on Spain had independent laws up to ~1700. While they belonged to the same Kingdom, they kept some independence. That level of independence was erased after a secession war that started on 1700, and ended with some decrees (Nueva Planta decrees, 1716 for Catalonia) that removed some "furs" and constitutions (not only in Catalonia, but everybody that supported the Hamburg's successor). And this was done using the term "derecho de conquista" (right of conquest).

Since then. I think that the source of conflict is that, for multiple reasons, catalans wanted to be part of a bigger political reality, but in "their" terms. And Spain, as a centralized system, didn't like that, doesn't like that and will not like that. To Spain, Catalonia is a property, why would they let it go? After all, it's their right (of conquest) to keep it.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#435

Post by dcabrejas »

deltron3030 wrote: post #301
iagovar wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. I also think that a secession wouldn't be the smartest choice, but that's a totally different matter. I don't think I'm in position to have a long discussion about this in english, but I thought about it and reached no conclussion. If I'm against the Catalan independence it's basically because of practical…

Yeah, economically it would be likely a disaster without quick integration into the EU on a higher level. That's another topic, why can't the EU sort them out? Or why can't they rejoin with Spain after trying and failing? I don't think that people would deal with a failure like that, they'd vote to rejoin, and the bond would be stronger afterwards. I think their movement wouldn't have gotten that much steam with a le…

> I'm interested in the mass psychology behind it, why Spain and their politicians think that it's a good idea to point out that the constitution of Spain and their unitarian aspects are untouchable.

I can give you my point of view as a Spanish person. I am not part of the goverment by any means. Just a normal citizen living in the middle of the country.

The infrastructure of catalunya (high speed trains, ports, highways, etc...) have been paid by all spaniards during many, many years. Like ways, may people from all over Spain live and work in catalunya and viceversa.

The goverment of Spain has a responsability to protect all citizens. Independece creates problems for all those people. It also costs the country millions of euros that have been invested in the region. It will have an impact on people across the country if the economy slows down, not only there. Therefore it is a decision that needs to be taken by the whole country, not only people in that region. Suggesting anything else is ludicrous.

Spain is a country, catalonya doesn't have the power to raise its middle finger to everyone else in the country whenever they please just like any other region in the country. We are one, period.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#436

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

Discombulator wrote: post #429
deltron3030 wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, economically it would be likely a disaster without quick integration into the EU on a higher level. That's another topic, why can't the EU sort them out? Or why can't they rejoin with Spain after trying and failing? I don't think that people would deal with a failure like that, they'd vote to rejoin, and the bond would be stronger afterwards. I think their movement wouldn't have gotten that much steam with a le…

> That's another topic, why can't the EU sort them out? What do you think the EU should even do about this, based on which principles? To me this is entirely unclear. There is no right to secede from a country, in fact, the territory is usually part of the identity of a country, also legally speaking.

> There is no right to secede from a country

> legally speaking

I don't see how any of these things matter.

If there's no right, if there's no legal means, then wage war. Die trying.

I'm not suggesting I support either position, but pointing out that, ultimately, laws and opinions don't matter.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#437

Post by dcabrejas »

Discombulator wrote: post #429
deltron3030 wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, economically it would be likely a disaster without quick integration into the EU on a higher level. That's another topic, why can't the EU sort them out? Or why can't they rejoin with Spain after trying and failing? I don't think that people would deal with a failure like that, they'd vote to rejoin, and the bond would be stronger afterwards. I think their movement wouldn't have gotten that much steam with a le…

> That's another topic, why can't the EU sort them out? What do you think the EU should even do about this, based on which principles? To me this is entirely unclear. There is no right to secede from a country, in fact, the territory is usually part of the identity of a country, also legally speaking.

100% people talk about the catalonya issue like they should just be able to break free without understanding the first thing about the issue. It just proves that people are so easy to manipulate with propaganda-like videos that catalonya pro-independence parties put online. I wonder what they would think if it was their countries that were trying to be broken.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#438

Post by romaaeterna »

xyzzyz wrote: post #432
romaaeterna wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good, I'm glad that we're agreed on the individual right. Now what is the right of the group? What rights does Spain as a nation have and what right to do the Catalonians have as a people, and where do such rights come from? The answer to each question will have a lot to do with how much you love each one. Someone who hates Spain and the Spanish would certainly suggest that their course is to be a grubby landlord, tr…

Now what is the right of the group? What rights does Spain as a nation have and what right to do the Catalonians have as a people, and where do such rights come from? The nation of Spain certainly is sovereign on the territory it occupies, so it is bound only by the rules it imposes on itself (and of course, external powers which might impose other rules upon it). The nation of Spain chose to specify the rights exten…

> The nation of Spain chose to specify the rights extended to its people through the constitution, and through specific laws. From that, Catalonians, as part of the Spanish nation and subject to its sovereignty for as long as they reside under its jurisdiction, stem the rights Catalonians have as people.

Interesting. I belong to a country where we think of ourselves as telling our rulers what our rights are -- deriving from God, some say -- and certainly not coming down to us from those rulers in any way. Sometimes we have to fight for these rights. It has been violent sometimes. Other times the process has been used. Some of our rights have yet to be asserted.

But try telling an American that George Washington and company gave us our rights, and you'll see who far that gets you. We love our country.

I hope that the people of Spain can love their country too.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#440

Post by superkuh »

testvox wrote: post #217
dannyw wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US companies have no legal obligation to comply with a Spanish court order. A MLAT must be arranged and approved before US companies have a legal obligation. GitHub's compliance with the court order was voluntarily and discretionary; just like how if the North Korea courts told me to shut down my site, you have every right to say no.

Wasn't the request sent to Microsoft Spain? And Microsoft Spain is under the jurisdiction of the Spanish Government.

The unintended but extremely obvious consequences of centralization strike again.
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