Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository • Hacker News Board

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#411

Post by romaaeterna » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 8:51 PM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #344

romaaeterna wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right to exit is an important foundation of legitimate rule. Plato's Crito has Socrates make the point that, even sentenced to death, he was bound to respect the laws of Athens as he was someone who had made the voluntary choice to remain in the city all of his life until then and under those laws.

Right to exit is an important foundation of legitimate rule. For individuals, sure, and I'm quite sure Catalonians are free to leave Spain and go somewhere else.

Good, I'm glad that we're agreed on the individual right.

Now what is the right of the group? What rights does Spain as a nation have and what right to do the Catalonians have as a people, and where do such rights come from?

The answer to each question will have a lot to do with how much you love each one.

Someone who hates Spain and the Spanish would certainly suggest that their course is to be a grubby landlord, trying to get every cent out of a tenant before kicking them out the door. Someone who loves them would hopefully never think of them as the sort of nation that would wish to impose on a free people or steal anything from a people, especially not land or property.

Lovers of Spain, properly, will think of their rights as rights of attraction, and free association, and from the governors to the governed. Haters will think of the Nation's rights as something to be imposed, and their duties as something to be extracted from their subject peoples.

What do you think of Spain? Is it love or hate?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#412

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 8:51 PM UTC

skissane wrote: post #408

javierga wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the UK, they might be the only democracy with that prerogative since they don’t have a codified constitution beyond the Magna Carta* * Please don’t quote me on this since it’s been 12 years I did constitutional law

Very many constitutions are actually silent on secession. I am from Australia. To my best recollection, Australia's constitution never mentions the topic of secession, neither positively or negatively. But, territories of Australia have become independent before. Same is true of United States. But, some will say a territory is not fully integrated, unlike a state or province, and a state or province would be differen…

> People say the US constitution doesn't allow secession of a state (as opposed to a territory) without a constitutional amendment.

Congress granting a territory (or state, directly) independence isn't secession, whether or not it is allowed. Secession is unilateral, grants of independence are a different thing.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#413

Post by tgv » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 8:54 PM UTC

BowBun wrote: post #340

tgv wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the Spanish Inquisition got to do with this? Are they in your reply because of the word "Spanish", as in "the union between the people of Arragon, Castille and the very same Catalunya, who (re)conquered the Iberian peninsula?" > governments burn libraries Not really. > Catalan separatists are ... pedophiles Is there really anyone who said so? Or are we a bit hyperbolical today?

If you're going to try and call someone out, you have to be held to the same regard. Regarding the libraries comment, it happens plenty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_destroyed_libraries#Hu... GP may be a bit verbose and dramatic, but the parallels between the Inquisition (a form of censorship) and current events happening in the same geographical location seem to be quite appropriate. He also brings up China…

He brings in the Spanish Inquisition because it seems to portray the Catalans at the right side of history.

> Regarding the libraries comment, it happens plenty

Plenty? It happens, yes, but it is not just governments: individuals organize book burnings, authors too: Vergilius wanted to burn his Aeneis. Meanwhile, the RC church had another tool (the Index), and almost no government burns libraries. I think even the Nazis didn't, and certainly the government of my country isn't burning them. I can see one right across the street, and while it's ugly, it's not on fire.

The comment above mine is all hyperbole and whataboutism, probably meant to provoke.

I'm not condoning the approach of the Spanish government to github, BTW. All of their governments seem to shoot into a reflex when the unity is at stake, from the Second Republic up to Sánchez.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#414

Post by tassl » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 8:57 PM UTC

ErneX wrote: post #391

tassl wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument of "I can secede from my home" is reductionist, simplistic and overall insulting to any group of people that want independence from the country they depend on or have fought for independence in the past. Most countries today are independent even though it was illegal for them to become independent before they did. Poland or Estonia would still be part of the Russian empire. Austria and Hungary the same c…

We are talking about a region of Spain that in 1978 voted YES to approve the Spanish constitution. One of the wealthiest regions of an EU member. This is not an oppressed or punished population, the right of self determination does not apply to it when it's an autonomous region that is part of a functioning modern democracy. Even ex-UN chief Ban Ki-moon agreed on this: https://www.thejournal.ie/catalan-independence-b…

> We are talking about a region of Spain that in 1978 voted YES to approve the Spanish constitution.

More reductionist argument. Catalonia, and any other region in Spain voted between a constitution and a possible new dictatorship. Trying to imply that, since a group of people signed something 40 years ago, everybody in that region is rejecting their rights not explicitly expressed in that constitution is dishonest. And what is worst, the argument seems to be made that it will remain like this forever or until the majority of Spain decides. Again, the tyranny of the majority.

> the right of self determination does not apply to it when it's an autonomous region

The right of self determination is not yours (or Ban Ki-Moon) to give, it is for people to take.

> that is part of a functioning modern democracy

Clearly it doesn't function that well, or most [1] Catalans wouldn't be so eager to leave.

[1] http://icps.cat/recerca/sondeigs-i-dades/sondeigs/sondeigs-d...

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#415

Post by huherto » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 9:00 PM UTC

DarkmSparks wrote: post #351

davidito wrote: post #304

Native speaker of Castillian Spanish here. IMO the most critical sentence in this judicial order was mistranslated by GitHub, changing our understanding of the government's request and casting GitHub's response in a more negative light (if you believe information and communication tools should be free.) The original language in the last paragraph is "...para solicitar la retención del contenido y los datos relacionad…

Now im confused. Did they order github to take it down, or make sure its not deleted. Or is everyone confused because a critical meaning is lost in translation.

Native Spanish speaker here. I understood it as preserve.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#416

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 9:08 PM UTC

ErneX wrote: post #293

iagovar wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. I also think that a secession wouldn't be the smartest choice, but that's a totally different matter. I don't think I'm in position to have a long discussion about this in english, but I thought about it and reached no conclussion. If I'm against the Catalan independence it's basically because of practical…

Constitution reform is the only way and yet lots of people keep pointing to other things, this is the reason we are stuck in this situation now. That road is long and requires actual politics, what they have done is taking a shortcut to nowhere.

If the Constitution is too hard to amend then that is as oppressive as any other method. Deliberately making political change too slow to accomplish is how you get revolutions, sooner or later.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#417

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 9:10 PM UTC

rtkwe wrote: post #260

rndgermandude wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's neither impossible nor unlawful though, they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving. Why do they need the approval of people living elsewhere?

It's just the way nation-states are setup, as part of being in the union constituent states give up part of their autonomy. This happens all the way down the governmental ladder. The other states (or regions I'm not sure how Spain is divided so I'll just say states) also definitely have an interest in maintaining the integrity of the whole nation. Over the years money has flowed both ways both from the other states t…

This is a general state problem, to be sure. It always ends up as an older generation imposing rules on a younger generation that lacks the political autonomy to change them.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#418

Post by skissane » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 9:22 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #412

skissane wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very many constitutions are actually silent on secession. I am from Australia. To my best recollection, Australia's constitution never mentions the topic of secession, neither positively or negatively. But, territories of Australia have become independent before. Same is true of United States. But, some will say a territory is not fully integrated, unlike a state or province, and a state or province would be differen…

> People say the US constitution doesn't allow secession of a state (as opposed to a territory) without a constitutional amendment. Congress granting a territory (or state, directly) independence isn't secession, whether or not it is allowed. Secession is unilateral, grants of independence are a different thing.

I don't know if that is the key difference here.

Madrid insists they couldn't allow Catalonia to become independent even if they wanted to.

Many people in Spain outside of Catalonia are resolutely opposed to Catalan independence, under any circumstances. By contrast, most people in UK outside of Scotland don't really care, and even the vast majority of those opposed to it would be willing to accept it if a referendum voted in favour. (Even those opposed to a second independence referendum, their argument is "too soon" rather than "never again"). In this regard, Spain is culturally more like China than the UK – pro-Beijing people get terribly upset at the idea of any territory claimed by the PRC ever becoming independent of it.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#419

Post by AshamedCaptain » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

davidito wrote: post #304

Native speaker of Castillian Spanish here. IMO the most critical sentence in this judicial order was mistranslated by GitHub, changing our understanding of the government's request and casting GitHub's response in a more negative light (if you believe information and communication tools should be free.) The original language in the last paragraph is "...para solicitar la retención del contenido y los datos relacionad…

There is basically no way to parse that as "preserve" without the rest of the document stopping to make sense:

E.g

> judicial authorities are responsible for the supervision and control of websites in order to prevent the dissemination of criminal content

> other repositories with the same information have been created to prevent the content being withheld|preserve.

It is quite clear they meant withhold. The document just does not "click" anymore if you parse it as "preserve".

Also: No one in Spain would use "retener" to mean "preserve" as a synonym of "archive", anyway. "Retener" might loosely translate to preserve as in "to remain unchanged during a flow/process", but not in any of the other senses, and this is not the sense that is used here.

And, if there are was possibly any doubt left, Spain actually blocked the corresponding github.io subdomain (redirecting it to the usual "Your national FBI equivalent has blocked this domain for your protection" page) before sending this Github takedown notice (likely because they did not dare "withhold" the entirety of github.com itself).

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#420

Post by pvaldes » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 9:46 PM UTC

tassl wrote: post #386

close04 wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still do it within the context of existing laws. Democracies rely on leadership by majority so you have to operate within that system. If it worked the way you imply what would be the limit to what you can justify with “self determination”?

All independence movement start with laws that are not existing.

And then there is always an independence war