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Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

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Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#351

Post by DarkmSparks »

davidito wrote: post #304

Native speaker of Castillian Spanish here. IMO the most critical sentence in this judicial order was mistranslated by GitHub, changing our understanding of the government's request and casting GitHub's response in a more negative light (if you believe information and communication tools should be free.) The original language in the last paragraph is "...para solicitar la retención del contenido y los datos relacionad…

Now im confused. Did they order github to take it down, or make sure its not deleted.

Or is everyone confused because a critical meaning is lost in translation.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#352

Post by te_platt »

davidito wrote: post #322
ETHisso2017 wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So retener is like retention?

It's also used to mean "withhold" or "block", which is why you have to look at the entire sentence to contextualize.

My (Chileanized) Castilian is pretty rusty but I thought your translation was in line with how I read it. Instead of "withhold" I would say "hold onto for myself" ; as in "Retener mis derechos". The broader context seemed to imply preserve the records as in don't delete anything as we investigate, but I can see how it could be taken the other way. In the sentence as written what word would you use in place of retener if you meant to be clear to stop dissemination or publication of the content?

Edit: In place of "la retención".

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#353

Post by nickodell »

dmaldona wrote: post #129
kragen wrote: post #42

Governments† burn libraries. Don't create central points of vulnerability to coercion. That multiplies the effectiveness of coercive force. Create decentralized systems. Git, not GitHub. Bitcoin, not Citibank. Email, not Gmail — although we still need to free email from DNS. Never forget how the Spanish Inquisition — the origin, in the West, of these sorts of degraded "laws" against "criminal content" — treated the J…

> People will say it's justified because the Catalan separatists are fascists, terrorists, pedophiles, or whatever. It's not justified. The rulers of al-Andalus were no angels either, but their abuses were nothing compared to the genocidal nightmares the Inquisition concealed with its censorship. Genocidal nightmares? I get that you are attempting to be poetic but do inform yourself about the historicity of your clai…

>> The Church executed no one.

From the Wikipedia article you mention:

>A number of procedures and protections restricted the torture of the accused, although much torture could be inflicted, and capital punishment was executed by secular authorities due to the clerical prohibition on shedding blood.

"We didn't execute anyone! We just decided who would be executed!"

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#355

Post by close04 »

vkou wrote: post #335
yiyus wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the same reason they include Barcelona in their hypothetical new country when most people there do not want independence or the same reason a state with 80% of democratic vote has to accept a republican president voted by people "living elsewhere". That's just how democracy works, else I can just secede if I don't like the result of the elections.

> That's just how democracy works, else I can just secede if I don't like the result of the elections. What's wrong with self-determination?

You still do it within the context of existing laws. Democracies rely on leadership by majority so you have to operate within that system.

If it worked the way you imply what would be the limit to what you can justify with “self determination”?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#356

Post by EthanHeilman »

zozbot234 wrote: post #106
deltron3030 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm against the Catalonian independence, so everyone knows where I'm coming from The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. I also think that a secession wouldn't be the smartest choice, but that's a totally different matter. A functional democracy implies that the whole has to arrange itself democratically with the parts it consists of, if not it ri…

> The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. Well, as both Americans and Spanish might say, "we had a war to settle that issue." The U.S. have been a republic (what you call a "democracy") for the entirety of their history as a nation, and yet unilateral secession is clearly forbidden.

I do not buy the argument that unilateral secession is clearly forbidden in the US and I don't think the American Civil War settled that point. The Confederates stood a decent legal chance to secede from the Union. It was a constitution crisis. Instead the Confederates choose to throw constitutional avenues away and engage in a war of aggression against the North. The South didn't need to raise armies and launch an attack on Fort Sumter. However personally I'm grateful for their gross incompetence both in starting the war and their conduct throughout the war because it brought about the end of Chattel Slavery in North America.

Furthermore I would argue there is a large legal and ethical difference between:

1/ a largely peaceful movement for secession which is suppressed and then responds with riots

2. and a landed gentry rising up in open war and invasion because they lost an presidential election and they want to preserve their right to strip freedom from their countrymen.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#357

Post by saagarjha »

iagovar wrote: post #67
zozbot234 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> developed an app that allows people to know where demonstrations are happening Sounds like a bit of welcomed transparency to me. The Spanish police, concerned citizenry, etc. can use the app just as much as anyone else, to prevent things from getting out of hand. (*Edited for consistency with newly-provided info in this HN thread.)

> The Spanish police, concerned citizenry, etc. can use the app just as much as anyone else, to prevent things from getting out of hand They can't. The app uses some kind of location data to silo information. So for example if they want to make an action in Tarragona, people from Barcelona is not going to know about it. It is likely, seeing some threads of people who have analyzed the application, that the administra…

Can't you spoof location data?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#358

Post by pera »

davidito wrote: post #304

Native speaker of Castillian Spanish here. IMO the most critical sentence in this judicial order was mistranslated by GitHub, changing our understanding of the government's request and casting GitHub's response in a more negative light (if you believe information and communication tools should be free.) The original language in the last paragraph is "...para solicitar la retención del contenido y los datos relacionad…

"retener" is indeed ambiguous, but in the sentence right before that paragraph they use "retenga" as "to withhold":

> Además, se han creado otros repositorios con la misma información para evitar que el contenido se retenga.

So I'm inclined to believe that the translation is correct.

(I'm also a Castilian Spanish speaker :)

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#359

Post by ErneX »

snvzz wrote: post #339
ErneX wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened with the Estatut should not be a carte blanche to secede, it was bad? yes it was pretty bad. But to drag probably half the people in Catalonia through this ordeal is just as bad as what happened with the Estatut. We need politicians doing politics again, change whatever it needs to be changed but inside the current framework.

>What happened with the Estatut should not be a carte blanche to secede Nobody took a "carte blanche" to secede. The succession of pro-independence governments were put in there by voters. These governments exhausted all possible avenues with the spanish goverment, which refused to even talk about the topic. Catalan people were then asked explicitly whether they wanted it, in the referendum that's famous for the viol…

"Spain" did not put anybody in jail, it was the judges and there was a public trial, according to the rule of law, some politicians commited crimes are were judged accordingly, the way you phrase it makes it seem arbitrary when it was not.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#360

Post by ErneX »

ivalm wrote: post #338
ErneX wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Constitution reform is the only way and yet lots of people keep pointing to other things, this is the reason we are stuck in this situation now. That road is long and requires actual politics, what they have done is taking a shortcut to nowhere.

Catalan are not majority of Spain. They cannot themselves change the constitution, yet they do not want to stay in Spain. So it's a fake "way." The majority should not be allowed to bully the minority.

So if I don't want to be part of the new Catalonia I can secede my home or join with a few neighbors to be independent from Catalonia? We have a constitution for something it's a not a Chinese vase to glance at it.
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