Live data from Hacker News

Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

ft.com

101–110 of 119 posts

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#101
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First we do not agree on free education. I believe that's a good thing. Now, what Macron's government did wrong with research and higher education is: literally everything they did about it. The switch to high tuition as you said (especially given that it was only for foreigners , which I consider racist, and anyway the Conseil Constitutionnel recently found this measure unconstitutional). Parcoursup was a very bad d…

I'm curious, what's been going on with Parcoursup? (I don't read enough French to understand the discussions.) Also, I'm not surprised that tuition for foreigners is a lever they are pulling. A government is responsible, first and foremost, to its own citizens. Racism? Really? What about "localism" or "separation of duties"?

In France, university is open to everyone with a Baccalaureat (a national diploma you get when graduating high school). There are other higher education that involves selection of candidates, but not for public university. Everyone is entitled to it.

Since you can't make a selection of candidates with an entrance exam or by looking on grades, what do you do when too many students want to join the same university curriculum? That's what Parcoursup is for. Students put in their wishes, and some algorithm decides who goes where regardless of their grades. The algorithm uses a bunch of criteria and is pretty complex to understand. At some point they had to release the source code to be transparent, and it was a mess.

What the current government did is introduce grades into the system, so students who have better grades in the subjects relevant to the curriculum have better chances to get it. In a way it makes sense, but it also goes against the old principle that everyone is entitled to knowledge and can enroll in any curriculum - get a chance to succeed even if it wasn't their major in high school.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, I think free college for everyone is a terrible idea. Most people consider that heresy. A terrible idea from what perspective? I'd love to hear more! (I'm on the other side of the spectrum)

I'm not opposed to free college if 1) you're studying something with a proven ROI, and/or 2) you have a good academic history, and/or 3) you can't otherwise afford it. I think the idea that someone can get straight C's in highschool and get $50k a year to study art in college is not a good use of my tax dollars. I also don't think it's a good idea to give someone like me a free college education. I make $400k a year.…

As a Frenchman who greatly benefited from free Universities I was about to verbally tear you a new asshole, but I don't actually disagree as much as I thought with what you wrote and I appreciate the time you put in writing a nuanced take.

Point 3 I think is a given, social aids should be given proportionally to the financial needs of each student. The fact that I paid almost the same as a child from a poor family as some of my friends did while being bankrolled by their parents is not normal.

Point 1 I agree but with caveats. The issue is that ROI is hard to estimate. If you just use "money" as the metric then you end up with only shallow education system where only the rich can afford to study the classics and everybody else has to be a good little drone. Money doesn't quantify social good, and an educated population is a good thing to have even if not everybody is an engineer. Maybe a set of scholarships should be set aside for the students willing to sacrifice themselves to fill that need, and the rest of the available funds be divided among people who have a career plan? It might cut down on the number of kids going into biology, psychology or business administration as a place holder until they figured out their life.

Point 2 is even harder because I was a barely passing high school student, but I now have a PhD in computer science and I teach in a Russell Group university in England - high school performance is a piss poor indicator of academic ambition, and should not be used as a proxy for it. My personal opinion is that conditioning funding on effort, rather than results, would be a better thing - show up to classes and do the work and the funding will keep coming even if you have a few setbacks here and there. That's already in place in our current funding system in France, but the administrative cost means that there is often a one year lag between the student completely slacking off and the CROUS cutting off their stipend.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#103
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the racism part: France, as an ex-empire, is very attractive to its former colonies' students. And we have agreements to make it easier for them to come. So we get many students from Africa or the Middle East, often on merits and/or scholarships. In my engineering school, there were students from Turkey, Sudan (might be South Sudan now)... Raising the price of tuition will mostly impact people from these countrie…

So because France had colonies they now have an obligation to take in foreign students?

It's a moral obligation, yes. Plus, it's still nowadays a very powerful lever to keep relationship with local elites.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#104
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First we do not agree on free education. I believe that's a good thing. Now, what Macron's government did wrong with research and higher education is: literally everything they did about it. The switch to high tuition as you said (especially given that it was only for foreigners , which I consider racist, and anyway the Conseil Constitutionnel recently found this measure unconstitutional). Parcoursup was a very bad d…

I'm curious, what's been going on with Parcoursup? (I don't read enough French to understand the discussions.) Also, I'm not surprised that tuition for foreigners is a lever they are pulling. A government is responsible, first and foremost, to its own citizens. Racism? Really? What about "localism" or "separation of duties"?

About parcoursup, nobody really knows up to my knowledge.

About the tuition for foreigner, very few university applied it, and it has been declared unconstitutional by the "conseil constitutionnel" (it's kind of the french supreme court).

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#105
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is interesting because paid education has been pretty bad for mathematics in the US as opposed to France which sees a continuous stream of brilliant and successful mathematicians.

There is also a continuous stream of brilliant and successful American mathematicians!

Where did they study ? (real question here, because USA is really good at attracting brilliant people from everywhere).

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#106
post #70
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foreigners aren't a "race", what are you saying. The proper definition of foreigner in this context is: never paid any taxes and most likely will not later. If foreigners in China, Chile or Uganda start paying french taxes, I'll follow you. On raising in the Shanghai index, it's bullshit only if you don't want to compete. Sure the metrics can be discussed but the impact of the low rank is very much here: top research…

Are you sure you know what racism is? Racism isn't about race. Otherwise it wouldn't exist: there is only one human race. Racism is about culturally perceived race. The vast majority of the people who are affected by this measure come from North Africa. You know, French ex-colonies. So yes, it was a racist move in my opinion. Concerning Shanghai index: what if I don't want to compete? The model of small French univer…

>Racism isn't about race. Otherwise it wouldn't exist: there is only one human race.

Offtopic but I wonder, where does this notion come from?

Biologically there is more variance in the humans species than in others species that we consider to having races. One example of big phisical distinction is themarathon winner's race, most modern marathon winners descend from the same tribes, and have very distinct physiology due to millenia of adapting to persistence hunting. Literally evolution.

My definition of racism was always: race based discrimination. Aa in I should not treat you different because of your race. The definition about denying even the existence of different human races seems weird to me, as there seem to be a lack evidence to support the inexistence of different human races.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not opposed to free college if 1) you're studying something with a proven ROI, and/or 2) you have a good academic history, and/or 3) you can't otherwise afford it. I think the idea that someone can get straight C's in highschool and get $50k a year to study art in college is not a good use of my tax dollars. I also don't think it's a good idea to give someone like me a free college education. I make $400k a year.…

I think it will be the death of society and culture if rank areas of study by ROI. Businesses need engineers and accountants, but society needs philosophers, artists, musicians and social scientists. It's about the balance between those two. Actually, I am not sure what its like in the United States. Are only the rich allowed to study art or theater?

Why would anyone poor study it assuming that person is not a grnius in the area?

It seems like a fantastic way to continue the income hardships your parents endured, even if college (and dorm) is free.

I am against an heavy discrimination of pricing/subsidizing based on major/area, but not because of the argument 'poor people wouldn't study art', that's a weak argument.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, what's been going on with Parcoursup? (I don't read enough French to understand the discussions.) Also, I'm not surprised that tuition for foreigners is a lever they are pulling. A government is responsible, first and foremost, to its own citizens. Racism? Really? What about "localism" or "separation of duties"?

In France, university is open to everyone with a Baccalaureat (a national diploma you get when graduating high school). There are other higher education that involves selection of candidates, but not for public university. Everyone is entitled to it. Since you can't make a selection of candidates with an entrance exam or by looking on grades, what do you do when too many students want to join the same university curr…

This is not correct.

With the previous system, APB (Admission Post-Bac), candidates ordered their wishes, and a bunch of (known, public) criteria were used to rank students in each of the curriculum they enter in their wishes. There criteria included, among other things and as the most important factor the position of the curriculum in the candidate ordered wishlist. So if a candidate placed a curriculum at the top of their wishlist, the particular curriculum will prefer this student over one who placed it in the third position for example.

Now, with the new system, Parcoursup, two main things changed.

The first thing: curriculum have to manually order candidates according to whatever criteria they want. Universities are given access to grades and high school of the candidates. This can lead to (sometimes unconscious) discrimination (candidate from a prestigious high school is more likely to get what they want compared to someone who went to a suburb high school, for example). This is already stupid. The fact is also that candidates do not know the criteria in advance, and that the criteria may differ (and trust me, they do!) depending on each university and curriculum. Grades now may be a part of the selection, but they do not have to. And there is no way to really know if they do and if so, how.

This is a nightmare for candidates (and their parents).

The second thing: candidates can no longer order their wishes. This is really, reaaaaaaally, plain stupid. And it is what can lead to deadlock as I explained in another comment. It is no longer possible to apply an optimal pairing algorithm such as stable marriage (Gale-Shapley, of which a variant was used by APB). So the professors managing each curriculum have to manually set the number of candidate they call in their ordered list. If your department has 100 places for new students, then you might call the top 200 of your candidate local ranking at first, knowing that some of them with strong application will also be called somewhere else (because they most likely have a strong application there too) and they might prefer to go there. Now what happens when you have say 70 confirmed wishes and you are left with 50 candidates waiting. If they are waiting, it's most likely because they would like another university better than yours, but they can't let your offer go as long as they are not sure that this other university offers them a place. And in this other university, the situation is the same, with other people who may prefer to go to your university. And there we have a deadlock. A completely stupid deadlock that would be avoidable trivially if candidates could simply order their wishes.

This leads to even more stress for candidates and their family because it often takes up month before the situation is little by little solved by candidate settling for their second or third choice while it would have been possible to make everyone more happy way more quickly.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#109
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like your comment for several reasons> 1.) You don't provide any example how he damaged academia. It lacks substance. 2.) "he doesn't care at all about being a mathematician (well, except when it gives him credit he doesn't deserve)" That bit of character assassination is unnecessary. He is obviously one of the most accomplished Mathematicians alive.

1) You're right, sorry. Substance in followup comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21404314 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21406475 2) The fact that he is one of the most accomplished mathematicians alive does not contradict the fact that it doesn't have anything to do with him doing politics, and that he doesn't do politics the way we could expect a member of academia would. That's what I meant:…

About Parcoursup, more substance: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21409203

The fact that Villani did not say anything about it and even supported the change says a lot of things on how he is now a politician and his mathematical background does not count anymore. I don't know of a single person with basic knowledge of algorithm who wouldn't be horrified by the design decisions in Parcoursup.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a continuous stream of brilliant and successful American mathematicians!

Where did they study ? (real question here, because USA is really good at attracting brilliant people from everywhere).

Well, as you might expect, many successful American mathematicians studied at top American universities such as Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Stanford, UC Berkeley, Chicago, Michigan, etc. (Not sure if your were expecting a significantly different answer.)
Post reply on HN