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Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

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Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#41

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

syrusakbary wrote: post #28
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"dommageable" is "damaging", for anyone who couldn't guess. Can you go into detail about what his party has voted for that's so bad for higher education and research? I consider myself pretty academia-friendly, and there's a lot of things I'd vote for that most people would consider damaging to higher education and research. For example, I think free college for everyone is a terrible idea. Most people consider that…

> For example, I think free college for everyone is a terrible idea. Most people consider that heresy. A terrible idea from what perspective? I'd love to hear more! (I'm on the other side of the spectrum)

I'm not opposed to free college if 1) you're studying something with a proven ROI, and/or 2) you have a good academic history, and/or 3) you can't otherwise afford it.

I think the idea that someone can get straight C's in highschool and get $50k a year to study art in college is not a good use of my tax dollars.

I also don't think it's a good idea to give someone like me a free college education. I make $400k a year. I can pay for it my fucking self if I want to. The idea someone else should pay for it seems absurd.

Further, some of the most expensive schools are some of the worst schools. I don't think we should be paying an unlimited amount of money for the same education. If the University of Pittsburgh can deliver results much better than USC (I'm not saying it can, this is a hypothetical) -- I don't think you should be able to get $70k a year to go to USC when you can study the same thing with better results at Pittsburgh for $20k.

All that being said, I think it's a phenomenal use of my tax dollars to train someone to be a doctor or an engineer or a lawyer (etc), who's demonstrated an interest in medicine (or something relevant) and has done well in high school -- especially if that person wouldn't otherwise be able to afford going to medical school (or law school or whatever). Especially if the tuition at that school isn't excessive, and people who graduate from it actually go on to get jobs as doctors and not baristas at Starbucks.

There's a lot of other things to consider as well -- is it just tuition we're covering? In Europe, most of the universities dorms and cafeterias aren't exactly 5-star hotels. Stanford's dorms can cost $2.5k per month for a swanky broom closet. I'm not sure it makes sense to pay for that. But I also think it's important to pay for room & board, because some people might really not be able to afford it, or will probably do worse in school if they have to work a full-time job to pay for room & board. I don't think it's a good investment to pay to put people in school and then set them up for failure.

Additionally, I think students should have SOME Skin in the Game. If college is 100% free, I'm not sure that creates the best incentives for the students. Maybe the government should pay for 80% and give you a low-interest loan for the other 20%. And maybe the max you can get is the minimum tuition of schools in the top 5% in your field of study. And maybe you get a stipend for room & board that is reasonable. That, I think would prevent a lot of potential abuses.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#43

Post by thatfrenchguy »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #41
syrusakbary wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, I think free college for everyone is a terrible idea. Most people consider that heresy. A terrible idea from what perspective? I'd love to hear more! (I'm on the other side of the spectrum)

I'm not opposed to free college if 1) you're studying something with a proven ROI, and/or 2) you have a good academic history, and/or 3) you can't otherwise afford it. I think the idea that someone can get straight C's in highschool and get $50k a year to study art in college is not a good use of my tax dollars. I also don't think it's a good idea to give someone like me a free college education. I make $400k a year.…

> I think the idea that someone can get straight C's in highschool and get $50k a year to study art in college is not a good use of my tax dollars.

What if that person ends up being successful in that field ? Should we only have the kids of the rich do arts ? That seems to be what's going on in the US and you see the devastating cultural result.

> Additionally, I think students should have SOME Skin in the Game

You have skin in the game, because you need to feed yourself. The government paid for my studies, that doesn't mean I wasn't thinking "how will I have a roof over my head" afterwards.

> Stanford's dorms can cost $2.5k per month for a swanky broom closet. I'm not sure it makes sense to pay for that

Trust me, if they're focused on reducing costs, they won't cost 2.5k a month. French public (individual) dorms cost like 120e a month.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#44

Post by solveit »

p4bl0 wrote: post #19
blondin wrote: post #14

oh wow! much luck to him! i remember watching a talk from him on youtube and putting that book he wrote on my wishlist.

Maybe he should keep to writing books and making YouTube video. The guy has no clue whatsoever when it comes to political matters. It's depressing.

> The guy has no clue whatsoever when it comes to political matters.

I find it unlikely he is clueless and very likely that he has incentives that we do not see.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#45

Post by xwolfi »

p4bl0 wrote: post #35
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"dommageable" is "damaging", for anyone who couldn't guess. Can you go into detail about what his party has voted for that's so bad for higher education and research? I consider myself pretty academia-friendly, and there's a lot of things I'd vote for that most people would consider damaging to higher education and research. For example, I think free college for everyone is a terrible idea. Most people consider that…

First we do not agree on free education. I believe that's a good thing. Now, what Macron's government did wrong with research and higher education is: literally everything they did about it. The switch to high tuition as you said (especially given that it was only for foreigners , which I consider racist, and anyway the Conseil Constitutionnel recently found this measure unconstitutional). Parcoursup was a very bad d…

Foreigners aren't a "race", what are you saying. The proper definition of foreigner in this context is: never paid any taxes and most likely will not later. If foreigners in China, Chile or Uganda start paying french taxes, I'll follow you.

On raising in the Shanghai index, it's bullshit only if you don't want to compete. Sure the metrics can be discussed but the impact of the low rank is very much here: top researchers abroad won't even hear about french labs and won't feel it will further their career compared to a serious university in the middle of Japan who invested to fit the metric.

Another thing that I always feel when I hear those grumpy french rambles is that it's absolute, as if time didnt change things and situations were eternal. What's wrong with adapting and trying and reverting if it doesnt work then try something else ? Doing nothing or whining at every attempt to solve a problem will just lead to...nothing.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#46

Post by syrusakbary »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #41
syrusakbary wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, I think free college for everyone is a terrible idea. Most people consider that heresy. A terrible idea from what perspective? I'd love to hear more! (I'm on the other side of the spectrum)

I'm not opposed to free college if 1) you're studying something with a proven ROI, and/or 2) you have a good academic history, and/or 3) you can't otherwise afford it. I think the idea that someone can get straight C's in highschool and get $50k a year to study art in college is not a good use of my tax dollars. I also don't think it's a good idea to give someone like me a free college education. I make $400k a year.…

> I think the idea that someone can get straight C's in highschool and get $50k a year to study art in college is not a good use of my tax dollars.

Why Art is not a good use of tax dollars? Who decides what is good or bad to study? Should only be the free market? I believe a cost of $50k/year/student is not optimal. I also think cost for education per student/year is much cheaper in Europe.

> I also don't think it's a good idea to give someone like me a free college education. I make $400k a year. I can pay for it my fucking self if I want to. The idea someone else should pay for it seems absurd.

It's hard to tell "a priori" if someone studying certain degree will make X amount of money. Because of that, I believe the balance is better adjusted after the fact of someone studying (meaning: paying taxes on salary once they get a job) than before (when studying).

> I don't think you should be able to get $70k a year to go to USC when you can study the same thing with better results at Pittsburgh for $20k

Completely agree. One of the issues that I see on the current system is that perhaps people start paying more for the connections that studying there will entail than for the education per-se.

> Additionally, I think students should have SOME Skin in the Game

Students should always have skin in the game. The question here is: should be mainly economical? There are a lot of other factors that can affect the status of someone that are not just about money. However I agree with you that perhaps a formula like 80%/20% might make sense. I believe that model is much closer to the one applied in Europe... and that model is actually closer to the concept of "free education" than anything else :) (at least, when viewed from the US prism)

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#47

Post by omaranto »

baby wrote: post #40
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"dommageable" is "damaging", for anyone who couldn't guess. Can you go into detail about what his party has voted for that's so bad for higher education and research? I consider myself pretty academia-friendly, and there's a lot of things I'd vote for that most people would consider damaging to higher education and research. For example, I think free college for everyone is a terrible idea. Most people consider that…

This is interesting because paid education has been pretty bad for mathematics in the US as opposed to France which sees a continuous stream of brilliant and successful mathematicians.

There is also a continuous stream of brilliant and successful American mathematicians!

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#48

Post by 205guy »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #41
syrusakbary wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, I think free college for everyone is a terrible idea. Most people consider that heresy. A terrible idea from what perspective? I'd love to hear more! (I'm on the other side of the spectrum)

I'm not opposed to free college if 1) you're studying something with a proven ROI, and/or 2) you have a good academic history, and/or 3) you can't otherwise afford it. I think the idea that someone can get straight C's in highschool and get $50k a year to study art in college is not a good use of my tax dollars. I also don't think it's a good idea to give someone like me a free college education. I make $400k a year.…

As the other sibling replies point out, your assumptions about how free education works in France and Europe are wrongly based on what appears to e an American experience tainted by a libertarian view.

With experience in both US and French universities, the only point I can agree with is "skin in the game." To me, the French students didn't seem to value the university experience as much because the cost wasn't explicit to them. Certainly, they were aware of the social contract whereby they worked hard and crammed for entrance exams, and then they would have high taxes in life and lower salaries than in liberal economies (the European term for US/UK freer markets). But in the everyday work I felt they didn't appreciate the effort and structure that they were benefitting from.

At the time I wondered if some symbolic 1000 Euro annual fee would make it more explicit. But if it were need based, it would just be another invisible subsidy to poorer students and just as invisible to richer students whose parents would pay it. And otherwise, it would just take away from the poorer students' housing and food budget, so I don't know the answer. It seemed to be more of a perception that needed adjusting, perhaps with a different attitude given by professors and administrators.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#49

Post by jessewmc »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #41
syrusakbary wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, I think free college for everyone is a terrible idea. Most people consider that heresy. A terrible idea from what perspective? I'd love to hear more! (I'm on the other side of the spectrum)

I'm not opposed to free college if 1) you're studying something with a proven ROI, and/or 2) you have a good academic history, and/or 3) you can't otherwise afford it. I think the idea that someone can get straight C's in highschool and get $50k a year to study art in college is not a good use of my tax dollars. I also don't think it's a good idea to give someone like me a free college education. I make $400k a year.…

A lot of these problems are solved by making student loans dischargeable and subject to market forces. Nothing like someone with monetary incentive to sort out who has a positive ROI on education.

As a side effect it would almost certainly make American universities much leaner than the zero-risk loan-glutted monstrosities they are now, which also means more people could afford to go without a loan.

Re: Cédric Villani: mathematician challenging to be Paris mayor

#50

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

jnaddef wrote: post #22
prideout wrote: post #3

Not just a mathematician but a Fields medal winner. The current mayor of Paris is also an interesting person, being a Spanish-born woman from a working class family. She has made huge strides in the greenification of Paris: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/05/world/europe/paris-anne-h...

Current mayor is hated by a lot of Parisians because of the "greenification of Paris" as you call it. She closed a few roads and made them pedestrian-only; that was not well received by a number of people.

Basically, everyone without a car loves her, everyone who drives in Paris hates her.
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