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California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

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Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#391

Post by tripzilch »

braythwayt wrote: post #225
mc32 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teachers can't bear to carry that load themselves. That's ridiculous. Parents have a load to carry. Parenting isn't easy. I know people whose idea or rearing is limited to feeding, dressing and sending their kids to school. "Kids are not expensive" is what they tell me.

> Teachers can't bear to carry that load themselves. Why can't they bear the load? - Because they are underfunded and understaffed - Because society doesn't think it's the school's responsibility to teach If society decided that reading and writing should be taught in school, then it would be taught in school and the system would be designed such that teachers would easily handle it. Your "parents have a load to carr…

> If society decided that reading and writing should be taught in school, then it would be taught in school and the system would be designed such that teachers would easily handle it.

I mean, society could also decide that houses shouldn't have roofs, but then they wouldn't be houses would they.

The word for "school where you don't learn to read" in the rest of the educated world is "daycare".

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#392

Post by tripzilch »

yellowapple wrote: post #177
georgeburdell wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like an elementary school in my Bay Area district. Lottery admissions. Parents are required to volunteer ~10 hours per year and pay for uniforms. The school is 90% Asian even though Asians make up 1/3 of the city. Another one that's more art focused and requires 4 hours of volunteering PER WEEK is majority white even though whites are 1/3 of the population.

> and pay for uniforms It's bad enough that the school enforces a school uniform in the first place, let alone has the nerve to make parents pay for it.

Uniforms aren't necessarily bad, especially if the classes are diverse income-wise.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#393

Post by tripzilch »

yellowapple wrote: post #370
jclulow wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of benefits to uniforms. In NSW (Australia) public schools have uniforms, and parents pay for them. Low income families are generally able to obtain financial assistance through some grant, or fundraising programme; sometimes through donated uniforms. Uniforms actually help with socio-economic gaps: everybody dresses the same, regardless of whether you can afford more expensive status symbol clothing o…

I'm more thinking from the kid's point of view. These are the formative years when a human being develops one's own identity and sense of self-worth. Mandatory school uniforms encourage, well, uniformity instead of diversity (on a psychological level), and I doubt that's healthy for a developing mind. In particular, justifying school uniforms because "you can't tell the rich kids from the poor kids" deprives both poo…

I'll have a side of facts to go with your speculations, please.

I don't necessarily disagree, but you can really form any number of arguments and reach wildly different conclusions (try it, for a few you don't like). Without evidence (not anecdotes) to prefer one over the other, you're really biasing yourself to how you feel the world ought to work.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#394

Post by tripzilch »

saagarjha wrote: post #119
lonelappde wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are claiming that poor parents will changed their school choice based on the availability of parent-teacher conferences? And that the problem of poverty is overemployment, not underemployment?

Poor parents often don't have a choice: they can't afford to take time off from their job(s).

Am I understanding correctly that this is in fact literally the same issue as the voter registration problem in the US? (or was it the voting booths. anyway, the problem of being too far away and during "working hours" strongly selecting against the underclass)

Same thing right? There's a large underclass in the US that simply cannot take part in public society activities because they are indentured?

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#395

Post by tripzilch »

ThomPete wrote: post #357
dragonwriter wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A school network applied to all of New York state is hardly an anecdote Maybe another thing your top performing students in their top performing school network can explain to you is the difference between evidence and irrelevancy; specifically, that, with California being the first state to mandate a later start time, its unusual for schools to start later (New York is experimenting with some later start times, but…

18% of new york schools have a start time later than 8.30 a huge number have between 8 and 8.30, SA starts at 7:45 yet dominates the best performing elementary school. If you can't see the relevance then perhaps my boys should teach you about statistical significance you are clearly confusing it with arrogance. We are talking about 2400 elementary schools and SA being in the top 30 dominating almost every position th…

Can you at least try to understand what people are trying to tell you?

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#396

Post by tripzilch »

ThomPete wrote: post #365
boomboomsubban wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But sure keep on claiming I am the one who is making anecdotal claims You are. This doesn't mean they are for sure wrong, but you are looking at the success of one school system and saying that means that the start time does not matter. For all you know, that school system could change to starting at 8:30 and rank even higher. It is a textbook anecdotal claim. >The study you refer to compares 2, TWO schools and does…

I am comparing +2400 schools in New York state with each other based on the stats I told you and with Success Academy both being the earliest and dominating the top of that list (two thirds of the top 1.8% of the school. And that's with a majority of the children being black and Hispanic and from less financially well of homes. It's not just one school system it's various school systems Charter school vs. elementary…

> It's much less anecdotal than (...) studies being done

You what? Come on man. There aren't degrees of "anecdotalness". That doesn't even make sense. Neither does calling a study anecdotal. I'm starting to think you don't know what the word means. I'll give you one hint: it does not have as much to do with the meaning of the word "anecdote" as you seem to think, but with the way factual evidence is collected and being compared.

You should have learned this in school.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#397

Post by tripzilch »

mcv wrote: post #307
meristem wrote: post #34

Unfortunately, the school systems still rely on one parent at home. It is not just drop off and pick up times: school activities, parent-teacher conferences, etc. For example, in the SF Unified District, school tours for parents of kids entering kindergarten, middle school and high school are during the school hours, mostly in the morning. It is all built around the expectation of a parent at home or a job structure…

> " school tours for parents of kids entering kindergarten, middle school and high school are during the school hours, mostly in the morning." Yeah, but not every day. Just take half a day off, or arrange to work 4 days a week, like many Dutch parents are doing.

I'm Dutch and I'm not under the illusion that most of the US population gets the metric fuckton of benefits we do.

It's one thing to say that, as a society, it would be beneficial to make sure that all people have the opportunity to make these choices. Because currently a large amount of people in the US do not.

It's IMO not right to say that parents should just "arrange" having more time off. That's not how US job culture works.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#398

Post by ThomPete »

tripzilch wrote: post #395
ThomPete wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

18% of new york schools have a start time later than 8.30 a huge number have between 8 and 8.30, SA starts at 7:45 yet dominates the best performing elementary school. If you can't see the relevance then perhaps my boys should teach you about statistical significance you are clearly confusing it with arrogance. We are talking about 2400 elementary schools and SA being in the top 30 dominating almost every position th…

Can you at least try to understand what people are trying to tell you?

I am understanding what they are trying to tell me, they are just wrong about it for reasons I have already explained.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#399

Post by ThomPete »

tripzilch wrote: post #396
ThomPete wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am comparing +2400 schools in New York state with each other based on the stats I told you and with Success Academy both being the earliest and dominating the top of that list (two thirds of the top 1.8% of the school. And that's with a majority of the children being black and Hispanic and from less financially well of homes. It's not just one school system it's various school systems Charter school vs. elementary…

> It's much less anecdotal than (...) studies being done You what? Come on man. There aren't degrees of "anecdotalness". That doesn't even make sense. Neither does calling a study anecdotal. I'm starting to think you don't know what the word means. I'll give you one hint: it does not have as much to do with the meaning of the word "anecdote" as you seem to think, but with the way factual evidence is collected and bei…

Huh? I learned in school that sooner or later anecdotes become statistics. If you didn't learn that you are missing something.

So here is the statistics for you.

2400 elementary schools in NY state,

ALL 30 SA schools is in the top 3% and 2/3s of the top 1.5% is SA schools.

The claim was that the time you meet in school makes you perform poorer.

17% of NY elementary schools meet after 8.30, most meet between 8-8.30, SA schools meet 7.45.

In what universe is that anecdotal?

By all means.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#400

Post by ThomPete »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #385
ThomPete wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2400 schools and exactly the same school system the “scientific studies” are based on, so yes you are moving the goal post. What i have is a pretty clear indication that meeting early in school does not affect your abilities to perform well in fact when you compare SA which have the earliest meeting time they dominate of a top 30, 20 of those are SA. I was responding to a claim that Later was better for performance.…

>What i have is a pretty clear indication that meeting early in school does not affect your abilities to perform well in fact when you compare SA which have the earliest meeting time they dominate of a top 30, 20 of those are SA. All this shows is that there are more things that impact performance than start time. Those SA schools could still be performing better with a later start time, you have no idea. >anything t…

Of course there are other factors, but what I was responding to what the claim that meeting early lead to poorer performance. THATS the context here.

You are moving the goalpost whether you want to admit it or not. You made the mistake and you can't even live up to that. That says it all.

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