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Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

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Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#211

Post by inerte »

navigatesol wrote: post #124
vfc1 wrote: post #63

This is large scale Matrix-like exploitation at its finest like only humans can do. Copying the genes of a single animal hundreds of thousands of times, killing the males at birth, plugging the females to a milking machine, feed them corn and soy which is totally not their natural diet and injecting them with tons of antibiotics, hormones and god knows what else. I wonder what could possibly go wrong? All completely…

> feed them corn and soy which is totally not their natural diet What's a "natural diet"? I always assumed that animals (including us) ate what they could get, and their diets were perpetually evolving along with their environment.

Their diets are probably evolving but we're the ones changing the environment. Instead of grazing pasture, we feed them with genetically modified (not a bad thing per se, but not naturally available on the environment) and so much washed out that we have to fortify with B12 otherwise they would get sick.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#212

Post by netcan »

yboris wrote: post #151
lmilcin wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing implies the other, as it's impossible to produce enough dairy for so many people using the methods you mention, that is why most dairy people consume comes from factory farms in the first place. This is simply not true. What you probably mean is it is not possible to achieve the same results while not caring how it is done (ie. going about our lives). Throughout the history people relied on dairy way more…

You said it yourself: > people choose the cheapest product the cows be damned. When vfc1 says "One thing implies the other", the charitable interpretation of that statement is likely "given the way our society is structured at this time, it's inevitable that this result will obtain". When taking care of cows means spending more money on their welfare than some competitor, and when people are willingly disinterested i…

The context OP was speaking to is factory farm conditions relative to animal welfare on the "traditional" 100 herd farm. Fields, grass, no hormones or unnecessary antibiotics.

Singer argues that these conditions aren't good enough, agriculture inevitably leads to stuff he can't live with. That's a reasonable thing to argue. I disagree. It's not reasonable to argue that these conditions are a practical impossibility. That either prices skyrocket or cows can't fields. It's not true. It is possible, and common.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#213

Post by alexnewman »

akie wrote: post #104
alexnewman wrote: post #45

I'm starting to hear these types of things so much that I'm becoming skeptical

Why? Most of this seems to be documented, no reason to be skeptical if you can just trace back the lineages...

It's like when we had to adjust all the carbon datings because techniques changed. I just don't trust everyone always coming from a handfull of people. You'd expect to see it happen in both directions.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#214

Post by LifeLiverTransp »

The real problematic thing here, is not only the systemic inbreeding- but the applying of humans as selector. We do not always choose rational. Dairy in particular is ripe with these breeding choices.

Cows now can have more milk then they have release hormon for- so they need a syringe with oxytocine to release all of the milk produced.

Some of those selections, also have "strange" choices. In our area, cows where bred for nearly a working life of one of those breeders, selecting for huge udders. As in ridiculous huge, which was hard to milk, hard on the animal (higher mastititis risk)- and did not increase milk at all. It was simply the aesthetic choice of the breeder, which made for a ridiculous hard work to milk those cows.

A new generation of breeders arrives, and within two cow generations those udders vannished. Breeders should have to justify there selection, to root out these hidden wrong choices.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#215

Post by cjrp »

gwd wrote: post #164
vfc1 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There exists whole industry of keeping cows and producing diary in humane way. These are usually market gimmicks. They say a cow is pastured raised if they leave it out an hour a day, grass-fed if it gets fed half the diet in grass the other in grains, etc. The costs of raising cattle and producing dairy in that way would simply not allow to meet the demand and it will never happen. Factory farms are the reality of…

> These are usually market gimmicks. They say a cow is pastured raised if they leave it out an hour a day, grass-fed if it gets fed half the diet in grass the other in grains, etc. This is the "market for lemons" problem: Consumers can't tell actually humane treatment from fake, which ends up economically pressuring farms to cut corners and go towards the fake. You could register a trademark and have a certification…

It kind of exists in the UK; organic milk production involves higher welfare standards for the animals. There's also specific definitions for things like "free range" when it comes to chickens.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#216

Post by leetcrew »

vfc1 wrote: post #181
netcan wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Necessary/unnecessary, when it comes to food matkets, is a problematic way of thinking. It's ultimately preference, not necessity driven and our food culture is very complex. Completely necessity driven (calories, nutrients and such)... the food market could be much tinier than it is today. We'd be getting our animal proteins from insects, our fresh vegetables from a small collection of locally efficient species, etc…

There is this illusion in european countries that factory farming is a thing of the US, when in fact for example in Ireland factory farming it exists too - https://beyondthepaleireland.com/2017/07/28/factory-farms-on... And it couldn't be any other way, its economics. If one farmer starts feeding the animals with cheaper food and have better milk yielding cows, he would have a competitive advantage over other farmers…

> And it couldn't be any other way, its economics. If one farmer starts feeding the animals with cheaper food and have better milk yielding cows, he would have a competitive advantage over other farmers, and start taking over a larger part of the market.

I don't think this is really true. people tend to associate "ethical" products with higher quality and are willing to pay more for them if they can afford it. this is the whole business model for stores like whole foods. of course whole foods sometimes misleads customers regarding how "ethical" the sourcing really is, but that's more a problem of marketing/advertising.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#217

Post by lmilcin »

vfc1 wrote: post #193
lmilcin wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is solvable problem. When consumers and producers don't have incentive to do the right thing very frequently the solution is to regulate. As an example, if a producer declares they meet a specific standard this could mean they voluntarily undergo regular audit of their entire process including how the cows are treated. We do this for many products and services. Here in Poland, eggs are regulated in many categori…

But do most people actually even know what the numbers on those eggs even mean? http://www.krakowpost.com/9096/2015/04/healthy-living-what-d... It seems like it's just not very effective, most people are looking for the cheapest alternatives as one would expect - https://polandin.com/36653246/consumption-of-ethical-eggs-st...

People that are interested, like me, do know.

But I agree that packaging for products contains multitude of markings and without extensive research it is difficult to recognize which markings are regulated and which are not and what they mean exactly.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#218

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

irrational wrote: post #186
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually I'll bet you can, or just omit it or even replace it with water or some other water-based liquid. Very few baked good use milk in any meaningful way, which pretty much just leaves cheese and sauces. Of those, cheese is the hard one. I've heard there are vegan cheeses on the market now that don't suck but even assuming that is true they're probably still quite expensive. P.S. Oh right, there's butter, but sho…

Nah, I've tried since one of my kids is slightly lactose intolerant. Neither soy nor almond milk have proven to be suitable substitutes. It's not just the liquid, but something in the cow milk missing from the other milks.

I'm curious what you're making. I've done quite a bit of baking in my time and I can't even think of a recipe that uses milk as anything other than a more flavorful water.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#219

Post by benj111 »

vfc1 wrote: post #120
SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Copying the genes of a single animal hundreds of thousands of times, killing the males at birth, plugging the females to a milking machine, feed them corn and soy which is totally not their natural diet and injecting them with tons of antibiotics, hormones and god knows what else. I'd just like to point out as you seem to be (wilfully?) unaware - there are far more ethical and natural ways of producing cows' milk c…

One thing implies the other, as it's impossible to produce enough dairy for so many people using the methods you mention, that is why most dairy people consume comes from factory farms in the first place. Dairy price would sky-rocket and become a luxury item, and few people would be able to afford it several times a day every day, as its so common today.

Milk costs me £1.10 / 4 pints. So that's $2.36/US gallon (why 6.6614 pints in a gallon, why not a round number??? Edit: US pints are different and smaller. 8 US pints in a US gallon)

That seems to compare favourably with US prices. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-2-Reduced-Fat-Milk-1-...

That's for grass fed cows that are free to roam outside.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#220

Post by evandev »

hitpointdrew wrote: post #168
asdfman123 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen myself as a vegetarian, but increasingly as I get older I can't deal with the cognitive dissonance of eating meat and my feelings about individual animals. I mean, my fiancee and I used to rescue shelter dogs, and I can't square that behavior of putting through chickens and cows through hell in factory farms. I still eat meat, but I feel like I'm getting closer to not doing that every day.

I'm a similar, but opposite boat. Instead of feeling like I am closer to going vegetarian, I feel myself closer to becoming a hunter. I don't like my meat coming from poor factory farm practices, and think it would be great if I could source most of my meat though hunting, and then supplement it with meat and eggs from local farms. BTW factory farming isn't just isolated to animals, there are lots of issues with larg…

That's the main reason why I became a Hunter. It's in my opinion the most ethical, sustainable source of food for the small scale of my family.

Sure, it isn't scalable to many people, but I'd argue non-factory farms also isn't scalable.

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