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Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

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Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#191

Post by vfc1 »

gwd wrote: post #164
vfc1 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There exists whole industry of keeping cows and producing diary in humane way. These are usually market gimmicks. They say a cow is pastured raised if they leave it out an hour a day, grass-fed if it gets fed half the diet in grass the other in grains, etc. The costs of raising cattle and producing dairy in that way would simply not allow to meet the demand and it will never happen. Factory farms are the reality of…

> These are usually market gimmicks. They say a cow is pastured raised if they leave it out an hour a day, grass-fed if it gets fed half the diet in grass the other in grains, etc. This is the "market for lemons" problem: Consumers can't tell actually humane treatment from fake, which ends up economically pressuring farms to cut corners and go towards the fake. You could register a trademark and have a certification…

There just aren't enough pastures to raise enough cows that way to meet demand. Otherwise, it would have been done already, its much cheaper to let cows roam around eating free food, instead of having to pay for it.

The reason why factory farms exist is to meet the increasing demand. Farmers have every economic incentive to try to raise the animals in the cheapest way possible.

Still the cow is a prisioner, it has its childs taken away at birth and shot and gets impregnated immediately after, to keep producing more milk.

If the cow stops producing as much milk, it gets shot as well. Even if the cows lived a live chilling in the fields, all of this would still happen.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#192

Post by moby_click »

vfc1 wrote: post #142
throwawayfjlo wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European countries don't do any of the things described in GP yet most of us drink cheap milk everyday so something must be off in your analysis

There is this common internet illusion that these things only happen in the US. It's a myth, of course, it absolutely happens in Europe too and everywhere in the western world. How could it not, its economics and its a business. The goal is to produce the maximum amount of dairy at the lowest possible price, to fulfill an ever-increasing demand. Maybe the agricultural factories are usually not of the same size as in…

Inherent to dairy production is regular impregnation and separating the calves. Just like the egg industry, market pressure favors more "productive" genetics, which results in males basically being discarded early in life, and shorter productive life with higher output for the females.

Increasing animal welfare(, for lack of a better term,) results in higher environmental impact, because slower growth, longer lives and less conversion, require more feed and produce more emissions. At least globally - locally, large-scale concentrated operations have a high impact.

I can speak for southern Germany where there are still many small farms in villages. Due to space constraints, those businesses have to extract as much as possible out of every animal. I only have german sources, but this is what those stalls can look like: https://www.ariwa.org/leben-in-ketten-video/

The text says that cows are tethered like this for months or even years (basically their whole life). It's estimated that this affects about 1 million or about a quarter of the german dairy cows. I think the Matrix would compare favorably to this.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#193

Post by vfc1 »

lmilcin wrote: post #170
gwd wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These are usually market gimmicks. They say a cow is pastured raised if they leave it out an hour a day, grass-fed if it gets fed half the diet in grass the other in grains, etc. This is the "market for lemons" problem: Consumers can't tell actually humane treatment from fake, which ends up economically pressuring farms to cut corners and go towards the fake. You could register a trademark and have a certification…

This is solvable problem. When consumers and producers don't have incentive to do the right thing very frequently the solution is to regulate. As an example, if a producer declares they meet a specific standard this could mean they voluntarily undergo regular audit of their entire process including how the cows are treated. We do this for many products and services. Here in Poland, eggs are regulated in many categori…

But do most people actually even know what the numbers on those eggs even mean? http://www.krakowpost.com/9096/2015/04/healthy-living-what-d...

It seems like it's just not very effective, most people are looking for the cheapest alternatives as one would expect - https://polandin.com/36653246/consumption-of-ethical-eggs-st...

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#194

Post by vfc1 »

lmilcin wrote: post #166
yboris wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said it yourself: > people choose the cheapest product the cows be damned. When vfc1 says "One thing implies the other", the charitable interpretation of that statement is likely "given the way our society is structured at this time, it's inevitable that this result will obtain". When taking care of cows means spending more money on their welfare than some competitor, and when people are willingly disinterested i…

There are many ways to solve the problem of people choosing the cheapest product. For example, states require cars to meet minimum quality, safety and emissions standards and also have insurance. This is in recognition that, given choice, most people will not voluntarily pay for these things.

I think you are right, unless factory farms are simply forbidden they will continue to exist for the sheer force of economics.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#195

Post by vfc1 »

piffey wrote: post #180
vfc1 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I regularly order locally-produced milk from very small scale farmers Not a specialist here, but I think I'm generally well informed and just trying to use some common sense. You probably pay a bit more for that milk than at the supermarket, right? Most people in your country don't do what you do, they buy it at the supermarket. The dairy products at the supermarket simply don't come from those farms. Do you think…

> Still, in the end, the economic incentives for that farmer to produce more milk are the same. The farmer would be incentivized to use better milk yielding cows, get rid of the males, feed the cheapest possible food to the animals. American here, but I feel like this has to be a very American ideal. Scandinavian countries have this idea of Lagom which is a sort of balance that's right for everything. Italians have t…

I'm from Europe, the culture is I bet a bit different but the laws of economics still apply. If a farmer can produce the same product in larger volumes and cheaper, it will have an advantage over the competition and start taking a bigger share of the market.

The competition will catch up, etc. it's the same thing. But there is this very powerful marketing message that these things only happen in the US, which is not at all true.

It's all these pictures of happy cows and farmers at the supermarket, that create an unrealistic perception of how animals are raised.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#196

Post by vfc1 »

hitpointdrew wrote: post #168
asdfman123 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen myself as a vegetarian, but increasingly as I get older I can't deal with the cognitive dissonance of eating meat and my feelings about individual animals. I mean, my fiancee and I used to rescue shelter dogs, and I can't square that behavior of putting through chickens and cows through hell in factory farms. I still eat meat, but I feel like I'm getting closer to not doing that every day.

I'm a similar, but opposite boat. Instead of feeling like I am closer to going vegetarian, I feel myself closer to becoming a hunter. I don't like my meat coming from poor factory farm practices, and think it would be great if I could source most of my meat though hunting, and then supplement it with meat and eggs from local farms. BTW factory farming isn't just isolated to animals, there are lots of issues with larg…

Actually, most crops (80% of the world crops) are for feeding animals.

Shooting the animals yourself is not a very practical solution, or scalable. Sure you could do it for yourself and your family at great expense of your time and even some personal risk, but what about the rest of your city and country?

That would surely not scale, there is just not enough wild game to hunt, it can only be done at certain times of the year., etc.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#197

Post by vfc1 »

izzydata wrote: post #182
vfc1 wrote: post #63

This is large scale Matrix-like exploitation at its finest like only humans can do. Copying the genes of a single animal hundreds of thousands of times, killing the males at birth, plugging the females to a milking machine, feed them corn and soy which is totally not their natural diet and injecting them with tons of antibiotics, hormones and god knows what else. I wonder what could possibly go wrong? All completely…

I discovered not that long ago that it is normal to become lactose intolerant in adulthood after a prolonged period of not consuming dairy.

As far as I know, you don't need to stop consuming dairy it can happen gradually as you are consuming it too over the course of your life.

It's not an all or nothing thing, there are several degrees to it. Some people will end up in the hospital, others with only sporadic digestive issues not that troubling at first, etc.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#198

Post by downtide »

vfc1 wrote: post #120
SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Copying the genes of a single animal hundreds of thousands of times, killing the males at birth, plugging the females to a milking machine, feed them corn and soy which is totally not their natural diet and injecting them with tons of antibiotics, hormones and god knows what else. I'd just like to point out as you seem to be (wilfully?) unaware - there are far more ethical and natural ways of producing cows' milk c…

One thing implies the other, as it's impossible to produce enough dairy for so many people using the methods you mention, that is why most dairy people consume comes from factory farms in the first place. Dairy price would sky-rocket and become a luxury item, and few people would be able to afford it several times a day every day, as its so common today.

It is a luxury item. In the UK dairy and meat get subsidised. A pack of sausages cost the same as a red pepper. Go figure!

At the same time farmers here moan that they aren't getting enough money per pint. They are at a loss.

Meanwhile some luxury oat milk costs £1.80 a litre. The plant milks are a nightmare when you consider transportation. Be nicer to have local bottling of these alternatives. At least traditionally dairy farms were a little more localised and smaller.

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#199

Post by vfc1 »

herml6987 wrote: post #167
vfc1 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what about relative amounts? I would expect it to be more concentrated in cow's milk than in plants. It's usually the dosis that makes the poison so it would be interesting to know the amounts and its effects in humans. I have a hard time thinking that wheat and barley are that addictive, cheese however I can see it as being quite addictive.

>I would expect it to be more concentrated in cow's milk than in plants. Citation Needed >I have a hard time thinking that wheat and barley are that addictive Sorry but You having a hard time thinking that wheat and barley are that addictive is completely irrelevant.

That still says nothing about the relative amounts. Are they comparable to the ones in cheese?

Re: Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls

#200

Post by the_gastropod »

hitpointdrew wrote: post #168
asdfman123 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen myself as a vegetarian, but increasingly as I get older I can't deal with the cognitive dissonance of eating meat and my feelings about individual animals. I mean, my fiancee and I used to rescue shelter dogs, and I can't square that behavior of putting through chickens and cows through hell in factory farms. I still eat meat, but I feel like I'm getting closer to not doing that every day.

I'm a similar, but opposite boat. Instead of feeling like I am closer to going vegetarian, I feel myself closer to becoming a hunter. I don't like my meat coming from poor factory farm practices, and think it would be great if I could source most of my meat though hunting, and then supplement it with meat and eggs from local farms. BTW factory farming isn't just isolated to animals, there are lots of issues with larg…

What do you think most factory farmed crops are used for?
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