TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free • Hacker News Board

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#121

Post by untog » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 2:12 PM UTC

Accujack wrote: post #106

candyman wrote: post #50

I guess this is why some voters are eager for someone like Elizabeth Warren to get in office and stop some of this anti-competitive behavior. It's odd to me because TurboTax is good software (at least when I used it) and it saves time. So to me it's worth the money. But to force someone who as a job and no real deductions to not simply file a 1040 EZ online is just a rent seeker making sure they get paid.

>Elizabeth Warren to get in office and stop some of this anti-competitive behavior. Warren is a run of the mill middle of the pack Democrat. She only looks good because at present the GOP looks so bad. The government needs to be reformed, electing one party or another President isn't going to change much, unless you set the bar really low (Trump)

Based on recent history Warren certainly isn't a run of the mill middle of the pack Democrat. Her positions on banking, big business, healthcare and big tech companies is a leftward lean even when compared to Obama's tenure.

> The government needs to be reformed, electing one party or another President isn't going to change much

And pontificating about how "the system is broken" doesn't change anything. There are no actual concrete steps to reforming government that doesn't involve elections and gradual process, or revolution and sudden progress. If you think the latter is in any way likely then you're deluded.

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#122

Post by ISL » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

fedups wrote: post #117

I like propublica's reporting on this but geez, this needs an award for one of the top HN obsessions. Within the past 7 months: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free; 211 points -- 54 minutes ago TurboTax to charge more lower-income customers; 144 points -- 3 months ago Congress Scraps Provision to Restrict IRS from Competing with TurboTax; 82 points -- 4 months ago Listen to TurboTax…

And yet the cost of implementing a government algorithm has not yet fallen to near-zero.

Furthermore, the government has surely implemented the algorithm itself in order to verify submitted tax returns, so the implementation cost of pre-computing everyone's tax should be comparatively small.

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#123

Post by logfromblammo » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 2:16 PM UTC

_jal wrote: post #48

mywittyname wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see no reason why these products have a right to exist (and especially not be canonized), especially with how exploitive they are or can be. But if we remove the annual pain of dealing with taxes, then Americans will get complacent and may stop being bothered by having to pay taxes. - The serious ideology of a major American political party vis-a-vis taxes.

This. It is a special combination of sadistic and stupid, an American classic.

While sadism and stupidity may be two of the reasons for the US tax code, there are surely others. I also suggest extending special privileges to the rich without making that obvious to the poor, forging a weapon to use against political enemies, creating a huge number of bureaucratic jobs, benefiting a legislator's constituent state at the expense of the others, obfuscating the sources of government revenues, and as a means to launder dirty money into clean. There are almost certainly others.

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#124

Post by Accujack » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 2:17 PM UTC

ttn wrote: post #17

Can someone from US explain how come there is still no open source alternative to TurboTax?

There are "tax help" open source programs out there, but online filing (which is the main goal here) is impossible without a corporation working with the IRS to set up access, negotiate protocols, and such.

There's no open standard/API/infrastructure or protocol for online filing, so the only option for an open source program to help with that is "print out the whole thing and send it in" which is usually a lot more trouble (more expensive in time and money) than just paying Turbotax or similar services.

Turbotax and the rest of the tax prep industry have lobbied for years to prevent easy/free options for citizens to file taxes... it isn't just them preventing other companies from building products to do it, they're suppressing all competition and modernization, basically anything that would threaten the money they get from charging people to prep taxes.

At this point the entire system is set up with high barriers to entry, and open source solutions/free software don't typically work well in that kind of setting.

Essentially, no open source program has any chance of facilitating online filing in the US because of corruption in the US government.

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#125

Post by jjoonathan » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 2:19 PM UTC

at_a_remove wrote: post #78

dangus wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are still an unnecessarily painful solution. I did do these last year to finally kick TurboTax to the curb. However, they’re shamefully complex especially considering how they’re already a piece of software. They barely do basic arithmetic. The restrictions are entirely artificial, and the system is gamed so that you either spend a lot of time learning tax form rules and lingo or you just pay TurboTax to do it f…

Your point about how the IRS already has all of the relevant information is something that has always puzzled me. Why are we performing this bizarre, ever-changing ritual with the threat of IRS audits hanging over us if they already know everything? I think that is part of why TurboTax has such a foothold. I use it because it walks me through the frankly byzantine process and explains a good deal of the arcane termin…

TurboTax creates the problem and then sells the solution.

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#126

Post by javagram » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 2:19 PM UTC

at_a_remove wrote: post #78

dangus wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are still an unnecessarily painful solution. I did do these last year to finally kick TurboTax to the curb. However, they’re shamefully complex especially considering how they’re already a piece of software. They barely do basic arithmetic. The restrictions are entirely artificial, and the system is gamed so that you either spend a lot of time learning tax form rules and lingo or you just pay TurboTax to do it f…

Your point about how the IRS already has all of the relevant information is something that has always puzzled me. Why are we performing this bizarre, ever-changing ritual with the threat of IRS audits hanging over us if they already know everything? I think that is part of why TurboTax has such a foothold. I use it because it walks me through the frankly byzantine process and explains a good deal of the arcane termin…

The IRS doesn’t have all the relevant information though.

A lot of deductions and credits are based on events or transactions that aren’t reported to the IRS. State and local tax deduction, charity deduction, medical expense deduction, and so on. There are also various penalties that need to be self reported - the IRS can find them, but only if they do an audit and are looking through bank accounts and other stuff they normally don’t know about.

I’m not sure if the IRS even knows how many kids you have for the child tax credit. How would they?

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#127

Post by zajd » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 2:20 PM UTC

untog wrote: post #121

Accujack wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Elizabeth Warren to get in office and stop some of this anti-competitive behavior. Warren is a run of the mill middle of the pack Democrat. She only looks good because at present the GOP looks so bad. The government needs to be reformed, electing one party or another President isn't going to change much, unless you set the bar really low (Trump)

Based on recent history Warren certainly isn't a run of the mill middle of the pack Democrat. Her positions on banking, big business, healthcare and big tech companies is a leftward lean even when compared to Obama's tenure. > The government needs to be reformed, electing one party or another President isn't going to change much And pontificating about how "the system is broken" doesn't change anything. There are no…

> Based on recent history Warren certainly isn't a run of the mill middle of the pack Democrat. Her positions on banking, big business, healthcare and big tech companies is a leftward lean even when compared to Obama's tenure.

Obama is a conservative democrat (or a liberal republican, you can't really tell these days) so you're not putting the bar high.

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#128

Post by rolltiide » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 2:20 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #97

rolltiide wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turbotax is my cheapest option to doing taxes. My tax lawyer would cost me probably $40,000 to do the same thing just for the hours and their obsession with analyzing parallel legal theories and case law. I use my tax lawyer to construct the whole business model before any tax filings actually have to occur. Yes I could also consider a different lawyer and cpa for actually filing the tax return. They would also be mo…

There are other tax programs that are generally cheaper than turbotax.

yes, at this point I just don't want additional organizations having my data

credit karma having more comprehensive financial data on me? no thanks! just stick with the credit line approvals from self-reported income

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#129

Post by hannasanarion » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 2:22 PM UTC

untog wrote: post #121

Accujack wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Elizabeth Warren to get in office and stop some of this anti-competitive behavior. Warren is a run of the mill middle of the pack Democrat. She only looks good because at present the GOP looks so bad. The government needs to be reformed, electing one party or another President isn't going to change much, unless you set the bar really low (Trump)

Based on recent history Warren certainly isn't a run of the mill middle of the pack Democrat. Her positions on banking, big business, healthcare and big tech companies is a leftward lean even when compared to Obama's tenure. > The government needs to be reformed, electing one party or another President isn't going to change much And pontificating about how "the system is broken" doesn't change anything. There are no…

Obama held almost all those positions during the primary in '08. Why do you trust Warren to follow through when Obama didn't?

Re: TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free

#130

Post by gugagore » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 2:22 PM UTC

jimmydddd wrote: post #105

mywittyname wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see no reason why these products have a right to exist (and especially not be canonized), especially with how exploitive they are or can be. But if we remove the annual pain of dealing with taxes, then Americans will get complacent and may stop being bothered by having to pay taxes. - The serious ideology of a major American political party vis-a-vis taxes.

I sort of agree with the pain guys. I'm currently self employed (US) and have to separately pay estimated taxes quarterly. Since I've been doing this, I'm a lot more sensitive to politicians who want to raise my taxes. Similarly, there is a group in the US whose main goal is to change the law so that employers can't pay your taxes on your behalf. Instead, you would get your full salary, and then have to write a check…

I don't understand why the pain of filing is connected to the pain of spending money.

If a politician raises taxes, and all it does is change the value of a annual withdrawal on your account, I think that pain would be the same, regardless of difficulty of filing.

The pain is estimating and filing 4 times a year.