Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project • Hacker News Board

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#221

Post by mrb » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 7:14 AM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #129

lucasverra wrote: post #55

David Marcus update [1] : Special thanks to @Visa and @Mastercard for sticking it out until the 11th hour. The pressure has been intense (understatement), and I respect their decision to wait until there’s regulatory clarity for @Libra_ to proceed, vs. the invoked threats (by many) on their biz. I would caution against reading the fate of Libra into this update. Of course, it’s not great news in the short term, but i…

The fate of Libra isn't tied to Visa/Mastercard's withdrawal. It's ultimately about whether there is a market for a new mechanism for international money transfers. As someone who runs a business that has (small) offices both in EU and North America, let me share a quick overview of the current state of things. When you want to transfer a non-trivial amount of money between 2 countries, you have likely received it in…

«a lost password or a hacked computer could permanently eat away your money»

If it happens less than 0.5% of the time, then you are losing more money in fees with your forex broker.

Also don't forget the massive cashflow advantage of dealing in crypto only. Minutes to send crypto vs 24-48h + weekends/holiday delays incurred by your broker wires. That's especially true of businesses who transact with their partners/suppliers/contractors in crypto so they even avoid the fiatcrypto conversion step.

«any legal recourse»

There is always legal recourse. Plenty of crypto thieves have been, are being, and will be prosecuted.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#222

Post by chias » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 7:15 AM UTC

lyqwyd wrote: post #143

john_moscow wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fate of Libra isn't tied to Visa/Mastercard's withdrawal. It's ultimately about whether there is a market for a new mechanism for international money transfers. As someone who runs a business that has (small) offices both in EU and North America, let me share a quick overview of the current state of things. When you want to transfer a non-trivial amount of money between 2 countries, you have likely received it in…

What do you consider non-trivial? I transfer money to Africa on a regular basis, and I don’t have these same issues other than the difference between published exchange rate and realized, which is about 1-1.5%. Transfer fees are minimal. I transfer about $3,000 per month, but no I could go up to at least $10K without issue. Occasionally it can have a bit of a delay, but normally it closes in less than a minute, and I…

Generally speaking, in this context "non-trivial" means more than $10,000 - $15,000 at once. 10 is where various paper-trail requirements start to kick in (at least in the United States) and things start to get a little more complicated.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#223

Post by te_chris » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 7:16 AM UTC

thefounder wrote: post #216

Illniyar wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since Libra isn't distributed, in the sense that anyone can start mining it, one of the key premises for its trust was that governance and operation will be handled by a group of powerful and trustworthy companies. The more companies leave the initiative the more centralized it becomes and the less its trust model is valid. If only Facebook remains it isn't any different than a simple virtual currency (like the disco…

What people want is a stable currency that they can use where ever they want. That means at atm/mfm machines, pos, internet and p2p. They couldn't care less if visa/mastercard or JPMorgan is behind it. The issue is that without visa/mastercard is hard to convince banks and merchants to accept this new currency.

You mean like the eur, usd, aud, nzd, gbp, jpy? That sort of stable and reliable currency with a strong banking infrastructure?

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#224

Post by starfallg » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 7:23 AM UTC

grey-area wrote: post #218

lacker wrote: post #38

I hope this doesn't cause Facebook to give up on Libra. I personally have no desire to own Libra. But traditional bank accounts kind of suck as a product and I would like to see more tech companies competing with them. The problems with bank accounts: 1. They charge you fees for things 2. They try to upsell me stupid financial products 3. They are not easy to use in other countries 4. Typing in my credit card number…

The rules are big tech companies are not allowed to compete with nation states. New currencies would supplant those of nation states and reduce their power, hence the pushback. Facebook is the last company I’d want to see dominate the coming global corporate currencies. They are unscrupulous, dishonest to the core, and willing to cheat partners and customers alike to get what they want. IMO banks rather than currenci…

>I see it as inevitable and, for the reasons you point out, not too difficult, as the incumbents are sclerotic and unable to grasp the importance of software.

It's not inevitable at all. This is because (retail) banks operate more or less in the same way in their back office. The change is the front office - retail branches are being replaced with apps. But they have seen this before - with telephone and online banking. And the current generation of apps from the big banks is catching up (mainly UX). The only thing that really stands-out for the startups is the onboarding process.

This is going to end in a completely different way than the retail wars, because there, it was a revolution in both the front (storefront) and back (logistics of getting the product to the customers) office.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#225

Post by buboard » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 7:25 AM UTC

Illniyar wrote: post #202

lucasverra wrote: post #55

David Marcus update [1] : Special thanks to @Visa and @Mastercard for sticking it out until the 11th hour. The pressure has been intense (understatement), and I respect their decision to wait until there’s regulatory clarity for @Libra_ to proceed, vs. the invoked threats (by many) on their biz. I would caution against reading the fate of Libra into this update. Of course, it’s not great news in the short term, but i…

Since Libra isn't distributed, in the sense that anyone can start mining it, one of the key premises for its trust was that governance and operation will be handled by a group of powerful and trustworthy companies. The more companies leave the initiative the more centralized it becomes and the less its trust model is valid. If only Facebook remains it isn't any different than a simple virtual currency (like the disco…

I dont buy the idea that Paypal added critical legitimacy to the project. SV companies are a pretty homogeneous interest group, and FB is already one of the largest players. For me libra is trustworthy because it's backed by real money from many governments. It's highly unlikely that facebook would commit real fraud with it, since they both have the cash to pull it through and committing fraud would be devastating to their brand (HN may not like FB , but it is obviously one of the better trusted tech companies).

This also opens the way for other more obscure partners to enter the association. That will probably determine its future course

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#226

Post by Slartie » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 7:26 AM UTC

lacker wrote: post #98

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think a Facebook currency is not going to charge fees and upsell you left, right and centre the first moment they think they can get away with it? That's as well as targeting advertising and selling data of your spending patterns.

It's not that I think the Libra product is going to be fantastic per se. I just think that competition will force all the companies to make their products better. I don't want the government to prevent companies from making products, I want to be able to choose of my own free will whether it's a good product or not.

Then choose "the better product" among the myriad of banking accounts from the myriad of competing banks out there. Your problems are all problems related to bank accounts, not to the currency that gets stored in those accounts, so there is no reason at all to cry for competition on the currency level.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#227

Post by buboard » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 7:26 AM UTC

te_chris wrote: post #223

thefounder wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What people want is a stable currency that they can use where ever they want. That means at atm/mfm machines, pos, internet and p2p. They couldn't care less if visa/mastercard or JPMorgan is behind it. The issue is that without visa/mastercard is hard to convince banks and merchants to accept this new currency.

You mean like the eur, usd, aud, nzd, gbp, jpy? That sort of stable and reliable currency with a strong banking infrastructure?

libra is backed by eur/usd/gbp etc.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#228

Post by tsimionescu » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 7:30 AM UTC

ilaksh wrote: post #171

StevePerkins wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry. Sometimes goldbugs, and the crypto hardcore, get pretty far out there on the edge. It can be confusing whether something is an interesting point, worthy of discussion... or just outright "alternative reality", like climate change denial, that you should walk away from. Are you actually saying that: 1. The payment processors joined this consortium to AVOID helping crytocurrencies catch on in the mainstream?…

1. Look into the technical details carefully. Its not really a cryptocurrency except on the surface. Core aspects of the design absolutely preclude any truly distributed operation. Everything goes through a small number of nodes. It should be obvious that payment processors do not want cryptocurrencies to catch on. I know many people will never understand this, but the true purpose of cryptocurrency is to act as digi…

I think that the vast majority of the public would be much more likely to switch to a currency with Visa and Mastercard's involvement than a currency which doesn't have them on board.

I am honestly wondering which audience you think was losing confidence in this project because of Visa et al.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#229

Post by grey-area » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 7:32 AM UTC

starfallg wrote: post #224

grey-area wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rules are big tech companies are not allowed to compete with nation states. New currencies would supplant those of nation states and reduce their power, hence the pushback. Facebook is the last company I’d want to see dominate the coming global corporate currencies. They are unscrupulous, dishonest to the core, and willing to cheat partners and customers alike to get what they want. IMO banks rather than currenci…

>I see it as inevitable and, for the reasons you point out, not too difficult, as the incumbents are sclerotic and unable to grasp the importance of software. It's not inevitable at all. This is because (retail) banks operate more or less in the same way in their back office. The change is the front office - retail branches are being replaced with apps. But they have seen this before - with telephone and online banki…

I know people who work at large banks, they work nothing like a tech company.

Tech/IT is seen as a cost centre, often outsourced, and if not outsourced performed by disillusioned teams with neither influence nor autonomy. The back end of big banks is a huge mess of legacy systems, they had to be forced to adopt open banking, and the leadership don’t recognise that everything will be software soon. They are the antithesis of tech companies.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#230

Post by grey-area » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 7:38 AM UTC

capableweb wrote: post #102

lacker wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do want a for-profit company to run a global currency. I would rather there be hundreds of global currencies, with me free to choose which one I would rather use, if any.

If a for-profit company is running the currency, the users of the currency are in a loosing position. Remember, the for-profit company wants profit, so good luck fighting with them about the currency. "hundreds of global currencies" sounds like a good idea to me too, as long as they are out of the hands of for-profit companies.

If a for-profit company is running the currency, the users of the currency are in a loosing position

True, but exactly the same applies to a state running the currency, with even more evidence of malfeasance and manipulation. State currency loses significant value every year by design, and the management of it is really opaque.

I’d rather a cooperative mutually owned currency to either corporate or state control.