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Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

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Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#201

Post by vkou »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #87
mamon wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin does not need to be killed because it’s dead already: proved to be useless for all practical purposes, now used mostly for money laundering or other criminal activities

Money laundering and other criminal activities are a very profitable businesses that power an important sector of economy. If Bitcoin enables or facilitates them, it is far from what I would call useless. Also: it will not be outlawed everywhere, some country will jump on the opportunity. So you earn bitcoins in one place, legalize then in another one, where it is legal. It's not so easy to prevent this, I'd even cal…

Let's say, for the sake of argument that Ukraine legalizes BTC, while it's illegal everywhere else.

What you think will happen:

- Ukraine will make fat stacks from all the people who care about BTC. Crypto-libertarians will rejoice, issue fifty billion ICOs, and Ukraine's GDP will exceed that of the rest of the world. BTC will go to the moon, and anyone who didn't get on that train when its future was in doubt will be starving to death in a ditch, or working as an indebtured servant, soldering mining rigs for early adopters.

What will actually happen:

- Any Ukranian bank that touches BTC will be barred from doing business in USD. For a bank, this is as good as suicide.

- Any intermediary that exchanges BTC for a local currency (Hryvnia), without touching USD will be barred from transacting with any Ukranian banks, that don't want to be barred from doing business in USD.

- Anyone trying to use Hryvnia for any international transactions will be subject to strict AML scrutiny, because it is a well-known intermediary currency for laundering BTC. The burden of proof with AML is on you, not your accuser.

- The Ukranian Rada will quickly come to its senses, and, in order not piss in the cornflakes of the 99% of its citizenry that doesn't give a shit about BTC, will ban it, and stop being a pariah state in the world of international finance.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#202

Post by Illniyar »

lucasverra wrote: post #55

David Marcus update [1] : Special thanks to @Visa and @Mastercard for sticking it out until the 11th hour. The pressure has been intense (understatement), and I respect their decision to wait until there’s regulatory clarity for @Libra_ to proceed, vs. the invoked threats (by many) on their biz. I would caution against reading the fate of Libra into this update. Of course, it’s not great news in the short term, but i…

Since Libra isn't distributed, in the sense that anyone can start mining it, one of the key premises for its trust was that governance and operation will be handled by a group of powerful and trustworthy companies.

The more companies leave the initiative the more centralized it becomes and the less its trust model is valid. If only Facebook remains it isn't any different than a simple virtual currency (like the discontinued Facebook Credits).

And to preempt the argument that visa and mastercard aren't trustworthy - there is an inherent trust that most people give to big companies because their processes and checks and balances developed over years to be robust - usually from having to handle lawsuits and regulations which small companies rarely do.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#203

Post by WC3w6pXxgGd »

Illniyar wrote: post #202
lucasverra wrote: post #55

David Marcus update [1] : Special thanks to @Visa and @Mastercard for sticking it out until the 11th hour. The pressure has been intense (understatement), and I respect their decision to wait until there’s regulatory clarity for @Libra_ to proceed, vs. the invoked threats (by many) on their biz. I would caution against reading the fate of Libra into this update. Of course, it’s not great news in the short term, but i…

Since Libra isn't distributed, in the sense that anyone can start mining it, one of the key premises for its trust was that governance and operation will be handled by a group of powerful and trustworthy companies. The more companies leave the initiative the more centralized it becomes and the less its trust model is valid. If only Facebook remains it isn't any different than a simple virtual currency (like the disco…

" If only Facebook remains it isn't any different than a simple virtual currency"

Regardless, it never was different than a simple virtual currency, unless it's truly decentralized, which was never in the cards.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#204

Post by TheDong »

xtracto wrote: post #175
john_moscow wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fate of Libra isn't tied to Visa/Mastercard's withdrawal. It's ultimately about whether there is a market for a new mechanism for international money transfers. As someone who runs a business that has (small) offices both in EU and North America, let me share a quick overview of the current state of things. When you want to transfer a non-trivial amount of money between 2 countries, you have likely received it in…

>1. Do a domestic wire to your broker's office in the originating economic zone. >2. Wait for them to call you and confirm the exchange rate. > 3. Receive a domestic wire from the broker's office in the destination economic zone. > You often need to show the invoices/contracts showing the origin of the funds and the purpose of the transfer, but if you are running a legitimate business that pays taxes, you will need t…

Just because something is faster and more convenient doesn't mean it succeeds.

Here, I can do it too: 50 years ago, I'd make fresh-squeezed juice by hand over the course of about 2 hours. Fast forward to a couple years ago, and juicero let me create fresh juice in under 5 minutes with no effort. Yet, somehow, juicero no longer exists and had very few users.

Or again, 50 years ago I'd wire money to people via a bank transfer which would take multiple days, and back in 2012 I could use liberty reserve to do the same thing instantly. And yet, somehow, liberty reserve no longer exists and had almost no users.

Comparisons that are as glancingly related as "more convenient" or "are new technology" are absolutely worthless.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#205

Post by WC3w6pXxgGd »

alasdair_ wrote: post #161
john_moscow wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a happy customer of both a bank and a grocery store. If one day the grocery store decides to also open a bank, I won't suddenly move my accounts there just because I go to the grocery store every week. That's why the grocery stores trying to offer credit cards usually have some loyalty programs (e.g. points/discounts for in-store purchases). And BTW, they typically just partner with existing banks and not try to…

You are not the target customer. Grocery store handle a surprisingly large amount of money transfers and act as pseudo-banks to many of the unbanked. Some of them have their own banks on top and others have bank branches in them. Lots of people use these services.

How do grocery stores act as pseudo-banks? I've never seen my local Jewel-Osco give out loans.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#206

Post by robot »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #61
lacker wrote: post #38

I hope this doesn't cause Facebook to give up on Libra. I personally have no desire to own Libra. But traditional bank accounts kind of suck as a product and I would like to see more tech companies competing with them. The problems with bank accounts: 1. They charge you fees for things 2. They try to upsell me stupid financial products 3. They are not easy to use in other countries 4. Typing in my credit card number…

Do you really think a Facebook currency is not going to charge fees and upsell you left, right and centre the first moment they think they can get away with it? That's as well as targeting advertising and selling data of your spending patterns.

this sums up so many things wrong with capitalism in general. you get charged for stuff the moment you get to have no other choice. healthcare being the worst case.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#207

Post by onetimemanytime »

lucasverra wrote: post #55

David Marcus update [1] : Special thanks to @Visa and @Mastercard for sticking it out until the 11th hour. The pressure has been intense (understatement), and I respect their decision to wait until there’s regulatory clarity for @Libra_ to proceed, vs. the invoked threats (by many) on their biz. I would caution against reading the fate of Libra into this update. Of course, it’s not great news in the short term, but i…

Both USGOV and EU countries are against it. You would have to be stupid to poke the bear in the eye after being warned.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#208

Post by john_minsk »

chris_wot wrote: post #182
kebman wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I don't know about that, but it's certainly good for the world. :)

I disagree. I cannot trust anything related to Facebook.

Why is that? Potentially they have a lot of power, but did they exercise it in a wrong way in public so far? I don’t think so

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#209

Post by arcticbull »

TheDong wrote: post #204
xtracto wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>1. Do a domestic wire to your broker's office in the originating economic zone. >2. Wait for them to call you and confirm the exchange rate. > 3. Receive a domestic wire from the broker's office in the destination economic zone. > You often need to show the invoices/contracts showing the origin of the funds and the purpose of the transfer, but if you are running a legitimate business that pays taxes, you will need t…

Just because something is faster and more convenient doesn't mean it succeeds. Here, I can do it too: 50 years ago, I'd make fresh-squeezed juice by hand over the course of about 2 hours. Fast forward to a couple years ago, and juicero let me create fresh juice in under 5 minutes with no effort. Yet, somehow, juicero no longer exists and had very few users. Or again, 50 years ago I'd wire money to people via a bank t…

Uh liberty reserve no longer exists because it was set up as a way to launder money and evade regulations. It had plenty of users doing exactly that which is why it was shut down mercilessly by federal prosecutors under the Patriot Act. Their CTO is due out of prison this year and their CEO is in the slammer until 2036 give it take. I’d suggest perusing the Wikipedia page. If you did use it you’re probably on a very sad list right now.

Juicero no longer exists because people realized they didn’t need the insanely expensive subscription juicer machine and could squeeze the juice bags with their hands to obtain the juice. Hilarity ensued. Further details are available on their Wikipedia article, too.

I’d caution you not to read into these two data points.

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