Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#681

Post by sho » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

computerex wrote: post #655

sho wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For fuck's sake I don't need to provide evidence for my thought experiment !

You can literally say anything you want and just say that it's a thought experiment. Thought experiments are not exempt from providing evidence where you can, especially when you are making sweeping, stereotypical statements that are clearly biased against Hong Kong and trying to sway the opinion in China's favor.

> You can literally say anything you want and just say that it's a thought experiment

My fucking post started with "Imagine you are...."

> clearly biased against Hong Kong and trying to sway the opinion in China's favor

An explanation of something is NOT the same thing as an endorsement of it. I literally said I totally disagree with them:

>> I'd like to note that I do not support the Chinese Govt in any way and think the world would be a better place with an independent, democratic HK - a city I genuinely love.

If you still don't understand I'm sorry but I'll have to leave it there.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#682

Post by mytailorisrich » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 5:18 PM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #595

mytailorisrich wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if we go far enough in the past no current country even existed... That's true, and that also completely irrelevant, and may even be disingenuous rhetoric.

No, it is disingenuous to say that China has some inherent claim on places like Tibet because they may have occupied it at some point in the past. China's borders, like most countries, have changed over time and doesn't validate any present day claim.

I've commented about valid American analogies to what Hongkong is to China and you're accusing me of claiming that China has an "inherent claim over Tibet"? Right... I've nothing more to add.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#683

Post by DiogenesKynikos » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 5:19 PM UTC

trophycase wrote: post #515

sho wrote: post #315

Here we go again... Let me explain how Chinese people think about HK, since none of them ever seem to explain it on a site like this. Imagine you are a middle class American. Maybe you are but if not, just imagine, tech city on the east or west coast. You're pretty invested in being an American, skin in the game, manifest destiny etc. Very good. They call this tianxia by the way, basically Chinese manifest destiny. L…

Right so first it's Hong Kong. Then Taiwan, just like Tibet before it, then whatever the next thing the Chinese government convinces the people that it owns. And next thing you know China is even bigger and more dangerous

There is no "next thing." China's territorial claims have remained exactly the same since 1949, and are identical to those of the Republic of China (a.k.a. Taiwan). Actually, Taiwan's territorial claims are somewhat more expansive than those of China, since Taiwan still claims Mongolia.

It's pretty simple: China claims territories that were part of the Qing dynasty until 1911, and internationally recognized as such (except outer Mongolia). Tibet was never internationally recognized as an independent country, and both the PRC and ROC have consistently maintained that it is part of China. That was also the internationally accepted legal view. The PRC and ROC agree that Taiwan is part of China - they just disagree about what "China" is. The PRC and ROC both resented British control over Hong Kong, which is understandable, given that it was taken in the Opium Wars.

I wish people discussing the issues here knew the basic background. The idea that China is trying to gobble up territory, and will next try to annex Vietnam or Laos is just not supported by the historical facts. China's position on territory is pretty clear and has been consistent over time.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#684

Post by Faark » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 5:21 PM UTC

dan-robertson wrote: post #671

parliament32 wrote: post #597

This is why Apple will always be a second-class citizen to Android. If I have a good reason, I can toggle a setting and install APKs built by anyone. If I have a good reason, I can wipe my phone and unlock the bootloader to literally replace and de-Google the entire OS. When I buy a phone, it's a hardware product I'm buying. Just like when you buy a PC/laptop, what you run on it is your business, not the manufacturer…

So you can of course side load apps more easily on Android, but it isn’t super easy. I guess that matters less when people are motivated. But... if this statement were true in spirit as well then why don’t we see google seizing this PR opportunity and making statements about the superiority of their App Store’s more liberal model? Why do we instead see Google quietly removing HK-protest related apps too? I guess the…

> mostly circumstantial that Google cannot so thoroughly lock down their systems

You can say the same about any end to end encrypted service. Setting yourself up to not be able to bow to unreasonable request is the best defense and can be quite the extra effort. And I'm thankful for companies doing so.

Thing I don't understand why Apple made that decision. In their position I'd would have fought very hard to get gov (preferably HK) order the removal and then just "having to comply". But it's probably the natural consequence of wanting to curate entire availability beyond just in-store generate content (e.g. advertising, search ranking and so on). Again, it matters what you set yourself up to be.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#685

Post by mehhh » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

jethro_tell wrote: post #672

mehhh wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China forces the Uighurs and anyone who visits their region (Xinjiang) to install malware on their Android: https://www.extremetech.com/mobile/294389-china-is-installin... Banning sideloading forced China to use iOS exploits, which are ephemeral and not consistently effective. Installing apps outside a repository (like on most Linux distros) is a dual edged sword, Apple and Google are poor stewards of their software…

It seems like this app is also ephemeral? you just uninstall it after they've ripped all your data. So as usual you should cross borders with an empty phone, no?

The app has root, it can easily break out of the APK and ensure reinstallation just like other Android malware does.

Factory resetting might work if the system partition is not modified, but that covers only a portion of Android devices.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#686

Post by bduerst » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

davrosthedalek wrote: post #487

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not different. The societal impact is just larger this time around. Apple's position was never okay, and I hope this situation makes more people realize that.

Ah, come on, there are reasons which are less bad: Not accepting an app because it steals cc data. Virus. Etc. Let's not pretend this is business as usual, however morally bad the usual business already is.

You can still ban bad actor apps from your app store while still allowing users to opt-in to side loading.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#687

Post by AlexandrB » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

Steltek wrote: post #679

kypro wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple only cares about privacy because it's a threat to Google and Facebook's business model. They don't care about privacy, they only care about "caring about privacy" when it is good for their business.

Privacy is cheap to engineer because it involves not doing things or hiring more people. They won't allow actions, won't sync data, won't pursue advanced ML, etc etc. It's a clever way to say, "Keeping up with Chrome/Android is hard".

This is the worst take here. Whether Apple is sincere or not about privacy long term, they've created dedicated hardware IPs for doing ML on-phone to get around doing it in the cloud. This is not easier than just shipping all the data to AWS.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#688

Post by totaldude87 » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

How come https://hkmap.live/ is still online while the app cannot? if GCF(Great china firewall) can block Quartz, they can block this URL as well right?

thank god we still have an open web where few websites can still be there and not inside a walled garden..

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#689

Post by Wowfunhappy » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 5:31 PM UTC

s_dev wrote: post #565

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has been (I suspect purposefully!) dragging their feet on progressive web app support. There list of limitations is long, but most critically for this app (I would imagine), they can't send notifications and they can't work offline.

> Apple has been (I suspect purposefully!) dragging their feet on progressive web app support. The original point was that apparently there are no "work arounds" not mentioning that it could be done via WebApp seems a little disingenous.

I meant, there's no workaround for getting native software that has the capabilities of native software. If web apps were similarly capable I'd agree with you, but as it stands they aren't anywhere near equivalent.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#690

Post by Faark » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 5:34 PM UTC

root_axis wrote: post #675

m3kw9 wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is gonna boycott something they use daily and depend on

It is certainly conceivable that people could make a different choice next time they decide to buy a phone. Others that feel more strongly could switch right away.

Maybe, if it were convenient to switch. But I've given up on believing in boycotts. E.g. People kept buying video games, no matter how shitty the business practice. Preoders, Lootboxes, Season Passes, Pay2Skip... all seemed to have made a ton of cash.