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Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

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Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#141
It helps to know a little bit about what's been going on in Hong Kong, before you all decide to line up and take your daily dump on China.

It all started a few months ago when someone committed a crime in Taiwan and fled to Hong Kong. To prevent HK from becoming a safe haven for criminals, the Chief Executive of HK proposed a new law to facilitate extradition of these crime suspects from HK to various jurisdictions in the region, including Taiwan and mainland China.

The proposed law even explicitly stated that it's not applicably to crimes political in nature. But some HK people were nevertheless concerned that it might be abused by China to target political dissidents in HK.

So they have taken to the streets to protest that law. As a result, the law was quickly suspended before it had a chance to pass, and a few weeks ago the HK Chief Executive officially announced the withdrawal of the law.

However, despite the concession from the HK government, the protesters pressed on, demanding four more concessions from the government, chief among them universal suffrage, or the direct election of the HK Chief Executive, who up to this point have been nominated from a narrow pool of Beijing-approved candidates, then voted on by a committee.

It's not entirely clear that China even had anything to do with the proposal of the law which started this ordeal. But the protesters have been shrewd to paint a picture, to great effect, of big bad China stomping on the poor helpless people of HK.

What I cannot stress enough, is the rampant violence and destruction from these protesters, which has done this great city, and many innocent citizens, unimaginable harm. Feel free to support their peaceful protests, but please don't simply pile on and encourage these violence and destruction.

If anything I said is untrue, please correct me. Use the truth to argue your side, don't be a coward and hide behind your downvote.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#142
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I for one would support this - I like HN being a hacker’s paradise. People grousing over the latest insanity in world news can always find somewhere else to comment. As long as the insanity is technology or hacker-related it is fine for you? Saying you do not want to see anything political, is apathic and shows you lean towards whatever the status quo is. It is also dishonest (because politics is everywhere). In fa…

> Saying you do not want to see anything political, is apathic and shows you lean towards whatever the status quo is. That's not what they're saying: they just don't want it on Hacker News. > Here's how to deal with the issue instead: upvote stories you enjoyed and/or press hide on the links you do not want to read. This is coincidentally how you deal with spam without a spam filter. At some point, it's not very prod…

> That's not what they're saying: they just don't want it on Hacker News.

They decided that not only they do not want to see it on HN; they don't want anyone to see it on HN.

> You're free to use a website which uses an API to include/exclude based on a whitelist or blacklist. Use RSS with it, et voila.

It is a practical solution which does not require third party tools. Also, it is about more than you; it allows you to cast your vote, thereby taking part of the community.

You're free to use a website which uses HN API to include/exclude based on a whitelist or blacklist. Use RSS with it, et voila, problem solved for you. Because of the sheer amount of volume, this approach (which is easy to make with a blacklist) works quite well with RSS in general.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#143

This is their Blizzard moment. So Apple are just the same as Google , Facebook and the rest of them , top please their shareholders for the almighty buck. So the lesson here is to rather use the Android platform if you want "freedom".

> So Apple are just the same as Google > So the lesson here is to rather use the Android platform ..... do people even read the scripts they're given

Some do, some don't. Those who do have not yet found anything nefarious but it certainly is possible for some bad apple to end up in the pile of code which makes up an Android distribution. The difference between the paradigms is that it is possible to tailor an Android distribution to your needs (which includes leaving out Google-proprietary code) where it is not possible to do so for iOS and its derivatives.

Where (AOSP-based) Android users can 'trust but verify' (a contradictio in terminis given that those who trust should not feel the need to verify) iOS users are left nothing but 'trust'. This trust has been broken several times when it comes to the PRC.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#144
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The protestors always try to find away to ambushes the police. There is a case that the protesters try to burn a police alive. The protester definitely monitoring the police movement to vandalize the train stations and the shops

> The protestors always try to find away to ambushes the police. So then why ban the app?

To prevent the protestor to use the app for guerilla tactic. The protestor are known to ambush police if their number is small. And to play cat and mouse with the police to vandalize

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#145

As someone who has appreciated the privacy stance Apple has had and the privacy assisting steps it has taken for a long time (long before iPhone), I believe Apple is coming out to be completely hypocritical and anti-privacy/anti-freedom on this app. I cannot believe that Tim Cook and other senior executives haven't examined this deeper and taken a bold stance to let the app stay! Shame on you, Apple! Even John Gruber…

Apple only cares about privacy because it's a threat to Google and Facebook's business model. They don't care about privacy, they only care about "caring about privacy" when it is good for their business.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#146

Woah this is crazy. I don’t buy their excuse. You mean to tell me they didn’t investigate the app the first time it was removed, or when they decided to reinstate it? Come on, give me a fucking break...

Complete speculation, but maybe Apple wants people to use the app while having plausible deniability by removing it from the store. Banning the app for the first time made it incredibly popular, so a huge number of people would have probably downloaded it as soon as it came back on the store. Then, after a bunch of people download it, they ban it again to appease China. I bet more people downloaded the app this way than if they had just banned it today for the first (and only) time.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#147

This is a good reason to never buy apple. You never know when you might need to install an app banned by your government. At least on Android you can install apps from unofficial sources.

If the metric is to circumvent or bypass your government, Android is hardly an ideal option either. It very easily also would fall under the "never buy."

Thats's nonsense. You can install any app you want and google has no way of deleting it from your phone.

You can root your phone or install completely different OSes.

It may not be ideal but it will definitely aid you in circumventing the government.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't it "the law" also when they came up with the privacy claim around that terrorist case where the FBI needed access to a device? I mean, in the end it's the same thing as the classic "I didn't do anything wrong, I've been following orders".

The FBI specifically asked Apple to backdoor that device, rather than handing over encryption keys that they already kept.

Not much of a difference in the case of China, the keys to iCloud and just "following the law".

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#149
post #104

The privacy stance is just marketing. They have handed over iCloud keys and data to the state in China already. If they cared about privacy over market dominance that wouldn’t have happened. Unfortunately as an iOS user tied to the ecosystem this puts me in a difficult situation ethically speaking. I am sponsoring this. Perhaps I should stop buying into corporate marketing ideologies. Got burned by that before (Micro…

I have seen this posted before. Can you link me to the proof? Genuinely curious.

Apple's own statements on the matter are vague and you'll need to dig through their ToS, but here it is anyway:

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208351

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#150
post #79

From NBC News reporter @DylanByers on Twitter: “We created the App Store to be a safe and trusted place to discover apps. We have learned that an app, HKmap.live, has been used in ways that endanger law enforcement and residents in Hong Kong. Many concerned customers in Hong Kong have contacted us about this app and we immediately began investigating it. The app displays police locations and we have verified with the…

This rationale focuses on how the app has been used , rather than what it does , which could apply equally well to any text messaging or web browser app that is used illegally. Imagine if this said: > We have learned that an app, iMessage, has been used in ways that endanger law enforcement and residents in Hong Kong. Many concerned customers in Hong Kong have contacted us about this app and we immediately began inve…

This kind of reasoning is applied everywhere, all the time. It seems the majority opinion is that the "bannable" property of a tool depends on the ratio of good vs. evil usage of the tool, with time weakening the effect of evil.

So a tool that's mostly used for evil shortly after it's created is worthy of a ban (e. g. 8chan [1], Gab). But a tool which started with a more favorable ratio and slowly drifted into mostly evil-use territory (e.g. Tor, prepaid phones) isn't seen as being inherently evil and thus gets a pass. Tools that are overwhelmingly used for good will even have negative bannability (they will be actively protected and a ban will be seen as an offense) regardless of them being sometimes used for particularly evil purposes (e.g. Google, Twitter, cash).

In the present case, HKmap.live is mostly used by protesters (good usage as seen from an HN crowd PoV), so Apple's decision is seen as unjust here. But had it been mostly used by criminals early on, the consensus opinion would certainly be different.

There's a lesson for app builders: if your tool is vulnerable to bans by centralized/mob entities, it's especially important to attract enough good usage (as judged by the enforcer) early on in the history of your service.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20616055

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