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Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

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Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#121

Post by Fnoord »

nneonneo wrote: post #42
hamandcheese wrote: post #41

Why is this story already off the front page? Currently 117 points in 1 hour, yet somehow behind “The Origin of the Foot Rail” with 39 points in 7 hours.

If I had to guess, the mods are bending the scoring to avoid controversial topics again. They’ve done it before with US politics. Lately there’s been a slew of China news and some of the comments have been incredibly vitriolic. I for one would support this - I like HN being a hacker’s paradise. People grousing over the latest insanity in world news can always find somewhere else to comment.

> I for one would support this - I like HN being a hacker’s paradise. People grousing over the latest insanity in world news can always find somewhere else to comment.

As long as the insanity is technology or hacker-related it is fine for you? Saying you do not want to see anything political, is apathic and shows you lean towards whatever the status quo is. It is also dishonest (because politics is everywhere). In fact, the very thing I quote from you is a political statement by itself.

Here's how to deal with the issue instead: upvote stories you enjoyed and/or press hide on the links you do not want to read.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#122

Post by _tik_ »

idlewords wrote: post #82
wutbrodo wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm as sympathetic to the protests as anyone and I'm definitely not used to defending Apple's behavior, but are we sure that this is spin? Undoubtedly the app is being used for more than just "ambushing and attacking police". But absent a firm belief that this reason from the Chinese government is bullshit, it's actually a pretty tall order (and questionably ethical) for a corporation to push back against a govt dema…

The point is the app is not being used for ambushing and attacking police at all, because there have been no such ambushes in Hong Kong. The few situations where Hong Kong police have been in danger have come when a small group splits off and is isolated during a protest. In no case have protesters caught the police unawares in an ambush, let alone off-duty police. By its nature, the app shows large concentrations of…

The protestors always try to find away to ambushes the police. There is a case that the protesters try to burn a police alive. The protester definitely monitoring the police movement to vandalize the train stations and the shops

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#123

Post by _Understated_ »

nneonneo wrote: post #20
idlewords wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are pure lies, top to bottom.

And how exactly would you know that? There is a great deal of animosity towards police right now in HK. A very small minority of protestors have demonstrated willingness to apply violence, and police (including off-duty officers) have been attacked in the open on more than one occasion. So I don’t think it’s inconceivable that the availability of a crowdsourced map might increase such incidents. Of course, this is go…

> A very small minority of protestors have demonstrated willingness to apply violence, and police (including off-duty officers) have been attacked in the open on more than one occasion

Haven't the police being doing the very same thing to protestors and innocent civilians?

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#124

Post by Krasnol »

simonh wrote: post #117
m0xte wrote: post #104

The privacy stance is just marketing. They have handed over iCloud keys and data to the state in China already. If they cared about privacy over market dominance that wouldn’t have happened. Unfortunately as an iOS user tied to the ecosystem this puts me in a difficult situation ethically speaking. I am sponsoring this. Perhaps I should stop buying into corporate marketing ideologies. Got burned by that before (Micro…

It's really not a matter of ideology, it's a matter of law. They either comply with Chinese law, or they risk their employees being arrested for breaking the law, or they stop doing business in China. I think they would argue that, given that all phones are subject to state surveillance, iPhone users in China are no worse off than if they were using another phone. Also since iPhones are generally a lot more secure th…

Wasn't it "the law" also when they came up with the privacy claim around that terrorist case where the FBI needed access to a device?

I mean, in the end it's the same thing as the classic "I didn't do anything wrong, I've been following orders".

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#125

Post by personjerry »

newscracker wrote: post #54

As someone who has appreciated the privacy stance Apple has had and the privacy assisting steps it has taken for a long time (long before iPhone), I believe Apple is coming out to be completely hypocritical and anti-privacy/anti-freedom on this app. I cannot believe that Tim Cook and other senior executives haven't examined this deeper and taken a bold stance to let the app stay! Shame on you, Apple! Even John Gruber…

Nothing in Twitter photo statement talks about privacy. It's clear why the app is problematic: It's being used to target law enforcement, putting those people into danger. The debate here should be between the tradeoff of said danger versus the dangers to the protesters, factoring in the standing-up-to-China.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#127

Post by saagarjha »

Krasnol wrote: post #124
simonh wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not a matter of ideology, it's a matter of law. They either comply with Chinese law, or they risk their employees being arrested for breaking the law, or they stop doing business in China. I think they would argue that, given that all phones are subject to state surveillance, iPhone users in China are no worse off than if they were using another phone. Also since iPhones are generally a lot more secure th…

Wasn't it "the law" also when they came up with the privacy claim around that terrorist case where the FBI needed access to a device? I mean, in the end it's the same thing as the classic "I didn't do anything wrong, I've been following orders".

The FBI specifically asked Apple to backdoor that device, rather than handing over encryption keys that they already kept.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#128

Post by saagarjha »

rdlecler1 wrote: post #91
toomim wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This rationale focuses on how the app has been used , rather than what it does , which could apply equally well to any text messaging or web browser app that is used illegally. Imagine if this said: > We have learned that an app, iMessage, has been used in ways that endanger law enforcement and residents in Hong Kong. Many concerned customers in Hong Kong have contacted us about this app and we immediately began inve…

Exactly, by that account, they should remove encryption on iMessage so that police can access it.

I'm actually quite surprised that iMessage has seemingly flown under the radar in authoritarian countries for this long…maybe nobody uses it there?

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#129

Post by saagarjha »

mmsimanga wrote: post #86
ewoodrich wrote: post #3

From NBC News reporter @DylanByers on Twitter: “We created the App Store to be a safe and trusted place to discover apps. We have learned that an app, HKmap.live, has been used in ways that endanger law enforcement and residents in Hong Kong. Many concerned customers in Hong Kong have contacted us about this app and we immediately began investigating it. The app displays police locations and we have verified with the…

As someone who has lived under a dictatorship this messaging has a familiar feel. As the now late dictator was clamping (beating and killing) down on opposition parties the press statements would always say something along the lines of, "we are protecting the rights of law abiding citizens". He never ever said I do not like anyone disagreeing with me.

> we are protecting the rights of law abiding citizens

I find it very interesting when people say they only protect the rights of "law abiding citizens", since this is usually just a veiled excuse for "we don't think people who break the law should have rights, actually, you shouldn't have rights because you might break the law too".

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#130

Post by personjerry »

This may be an unpopular opinion, but this is a difficult call, and we should think about both sides of Apple's decision. If the app really is being used to target, and thus endanger, certain individuals, whether or not they're law enforcement, that is problematic, and makes unclear what the right decision is.

If we change the circumstances, imagine there is a new Uber-like group transportation app that helps people get around safely in the US. But it enables racist groups to systematically harm civilian groups, and is actively being used to do so. Would the US ask Apple to shut them down? Should Apple shut them down?

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