Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#341

Post by leereeves » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:25 PM UTC

mikeg8 wrote: post #312

jsjolen wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, I don't think we will ever do the right thing if the reward is big enough. I think the right way to go is to dismantle these unnecessary power structures that allow us to do the wrong choice and replace them with better ones. For example, Apple can only do this because they have the power to remove apps from their store (fine) and because we do not have the power to install apps which aren't from their st…

In regards to your second paragraph, I feel a certain dissonance. We have a right to purchase the products we desire in a “free market” but at what point do we have the right to dictate how that producer chooses to design their product/platform ie. free installation of all applications. I think technologists have a too idealistic view of software as a basic right/liberating force without accepting companies should ha…

Are you against requiring seat belts and emissions controls in cars? Requiring homes to be built to code? Requiring utilities to provide water/power/gas to products made by other companies?

Society regularly dictates how producers design their products. Technologists aren’t used to that because lawmakers have been slow to catch up, and many were intentionally hands off to foster the growth of the Internet, but the Wild West days are over and civilization is coming to Silicon Valley.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#342

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

jsjolen wrote: post #263

greatjack613 wrote: post #246

Honestly, I think we as in the United States have to think harder whether it is worth sacrificing our beliefs in freedom to gain a few $$$ (edit: A lot of $$$$$) from countries that don't provide their citizens with basic rights.

I disagree, I don't think we will ever do the right thing if the reward is big enough. I think the right way to go is to dismantle these unnecessary power structures that allow us to do the wrong choice and replace them with better ones. For example, Apple can only do this because they have the power to remove apps from their store (fine) and because we do not have the power to install apps which aren't from their st…

[deleted]

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#343

Post by zwkrt » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

sho wrote: post #315

Here we go again... Let me explain how Chinese people think about HK, since none of them ever seem to explain it on a site like this. Imagine you are a middle class American. Maybe you are but if not, just imagine, tech city on the east or west coast. You're pretty invested in being an American, skin in the game, manifest destiny etc. Very good. They call this tianxia by the way, basically Chinese manifest destiny. L…

This is not an argument in good faith. Alabama has no precedence of self governance, and that precedence is not being actively threatened by the US government. The thought that HK protesters (or Alabamians) just want to “marry their cousins or something” is icing on the cake. Just because some people think it is so does not make it so.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#344

Post by xibalba » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:27 PM UTC

This is a vexing problem.

It seems that many here would want Apply to defy China. This will result in Apple's expulsion from China/HK. Those users will then move to other phone mfgs/services providers, with higher probability that it will be Chinese, thereby granting the PRC even more power over HK'ers.

Contrarily is the "seat at the table" approach. Apple could comply with China, while continually introducing features/functionality that fundamentally block them (Apple) from complying with PRC demands (encryption, privacy, etc etc). Apple would not be able to announce this, and it might ruin their reputation in the meantime. It also allows Apple to continue hoovering up that sweet, sweet China/HK cash.

What is the best approach? Most of the comments here are signficantly oversimplifying the options available to Apple and the calculus that goes into making those decisions. Additionally, most opinions being posted are heavily centered on Western values/viewpoints.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#345

Post by mantap » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:27 PM UTC

3dfan wrote: post #295

avocado4 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apps provide better user experience through higher performance. I'm this case though website is sufficient: https://hkmap.live/

Why is the performance of Apps higher? Isn't both just code executed on the client?

There isn't really, you can hit 60fps on both, especially on current iPhones. The main thing missing on the web is an equivalent to Metal (they are working on it) so it is not possible to built 3D apps without sacrificing a lot of performance.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#346

Post by Double_a_92 » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

idlewords wrote: post #333

adam12 wrote: post #318

Why does this have to be an app in the App store? I wonder what APIs they are using that can't be replaced by something that will work in the browser.

There's a browser app at https://hkmap.live . Having an app in the app store is useful backup, since there has been talk in Hong Kong of censoring the internet under emergency law.

The app still uses the internet... What would hinder them from just blocking the API endpoints?

The app is probably just much more convenient.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#347

Post by helen___keller » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

sho wrote: post #315

Here we go again... Let me explain how Chinese people think about HK, since none of them ever seem to explain it on a site like this. Imagine you are a middle class American. Maybe you are but if not, just imagine, tech city on the east or west coast. You're pretty invested in being an American, skin in the game, manifest destiny etc. Very good. They call this tianxia by the way, basically Chinese manifest destiny. L…

> they saw the futility of taking some hopeless, simplistic, you-don't-even-live-here side, decided this was not the hill they wanted to die on, and pulled the app

This is the problem though, that the CCP can strongarm corporations into these decisions. China poses a huge risk to any company that does a lot of business or does production there. Today it's just pulling an App, but what is it tomorrow?

In the states this risk is predictable: The FBI can demand what it wants, and Apple refuses when they can, because they know they can weather a legal challenge. The risk is NOT predictable in the case of China: the government can demand what they want, and Apple's only choices are to play along or run home and tank the company. If things sour between nations, who knows what ultimatum is next.

Moreover this unpredictable risk spills over into a chilling effect: to avoid even receiving an ultimatum, Apple and any other company will bend over backwards to always be in the good graces of the government.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#348

Post by whoevercares » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

snagglegaggle wrote: post #327

whoevercares wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your point in its final form. Unfortunately it doesn’t work at the moment since you at least need to convince some tens of millions Chinese people who have been lifted from poverty under CCP during past 30 years, or you have to wait until Chinese government make things much worse. Before that, some sanction move from western might be viewed as political coercion from mainland Chinese people’s perspective…

Wait, are you trying to say China is more powerful than the US? Why give in to appeasement? I don't really care if their feelings are hurt.

Hmm maybe my written English caused some confusion, why you interpret it like that? Are you saying the more powerful ones don’t have to give in anything? In current world I don’t think such landslide advantage still exists

I’m saying negotiations and better strategy are needed. Ignoring feelings and demands from millions of people won’t work beyond keyboard, virtual or physical

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#349

Post by alunchbox » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

ru999gol wrote: post #321

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #297

And in one fell swoop, Apple has made it effectively impossible to install this app on your phone. There's no realistic workaround. † Apple should never have been capable of making such a drastic decision for all of their customers. It's one thing to make determinations about what products are allowed in your store, but quite another to unilaterally ban software from what is many people's primary computer. We live in…

In principle code signing is a good idea, this way Apple can ensure an improved security standard over their competition. But the downside is of course that Apple is in control, and like any corporation it will do things with that power that are unethical, immoral, anti-competitive, anti-consumer, etc. to the fullest possible imaginable degree. Its like when you buy a DRM protected piece of content and that company r…

Looking right at Adobe with Venezuela, U.S based company is taking an executive order at face value and cut off anyone there to using their products. It's worse now since Creative Cloud must be active to use the core tools, at first they weren't even going to refund anyone that just paid a year but luckily due to the outcry they will now allow refunds at least.

Being a software engineer I side with consumers more as I use a ton of services, but that's the flip side to the convince the consumer has absolutely no ownership to anything.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#350

Post by idlewords » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:29 PM UTC

Double_a_92 wrote: post #346

idlewords wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a browser app at https://hkmap.live . Having an app in the app store is useful backup, since there has been talk in Hong Kong of censoring the internet under emergency law.

The app still uses the internet... What would hinder them from just blocking the API endpoints? The app is probably just much more convenient.

It's not the A-team of Chinese law enforcement working the case over here in Hong Kong, so simple measures like these can be effective.