Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods • Hacker News Board

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#111

Post by anon1m0us » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 4:11 AM UTC

newen wrote: post #58

anon1m0us wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my research, yes it can. I read a study that said patients who fast during chemotherapy treatments fare better too. The mechanism seems to be that during periods of fasting, normal cells "hunker down" and restrict the consumption of nutrients and other materials. Cancer cells don't do this though and continue to consume the nutrients, which are actually chemotherapy drugs in the patients. Fasting therfore increa…

Got any links to the research? Would be helpful to me and other readers. Thanks.

There's a lot of research about it. I posted some above. You can search and find lots. It's all out there.

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#112

Post by nkozyra » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 4:13 AM UTC

dev_dull wrote: post #100

atwebb wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was in the next line: Your brain would literally starve without it. If you do not consume enough carbohydrates in your diet, your body will synthesize the glucose you need.

So then you don’t need to eat any carbohydrates at all? I’m really confused by the statement. You’ll never starve your brain by not eating carbs.

That's correct.

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#113

Post by TimSchumann » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 4:15 AM UTC

jcims wrote: post #102

TimSchumann wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One negative experience, slight hair loss that started approximately 6 to 8 weeks post fast. Maybe 10 to 15% of the hair on my head fell out in total, but it all grew back. One other negative experience but that was due to my own stupidity and I've since learned better. Basically if you're above 15% bodyfat, you only need two things to live. Water and electrolytes. If anyone has any questions, more than happy to answ…

Any liver issues? Did you have any steatosis/fatty liver before? Clear that up at all?

None that I was aware of, though at my weight I'm sure there could have been.

Kinda kicking myself for not getting a good set of blood tests for the 'before' results.

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#114

Post by baked_ziti » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 4:16 AM UTC

TimSchumann wrote: post #43

dev_dull wrote: post #6

> your body closely regulates the level of glucose in your blood. Your brain would literally starve without it. Is this actually true? Having done the ketogenic diet and bringing carbohydrates down to almost nothing, my brain definitely didn't starve. In fact, running on ketones was amazing.

The amount of carbohydrates you need in your diet to survive is exactly zero. They’re a non-essential macronutrient. The amount of glucose you need in your blood stream to keep everything running smoothly is a very small amount easily produced by your body through a process called gluconeogenesis. I went 60 days sans any calories and my body self regulated glucose just fine.

Eliminating carbohydrates from your diet means eliminating vegetables from your diet. I'm highly skeptical of the claim that any such diet can ever be healthy in the medium to long term. I fail to see how malnourishment isn't a certainty under such circumstances.

The fact that humans can fast for weeks or months isn't evidence in favor of:

> The amount of carbohydrates you need in your diet to survive is exactly zero.

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#115

Post by snowwrestler » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 4:28 AM UTC

anon1m0us wrote: post #104

snowwrestler wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This information is dangerously wrong. I have asked several oncologists specifically about fasting during chemotherapy and they all recommended strongly against it. Your understanding of how chemotherapy works with cancer and healthy cells seems flawed. Chemo harms all fast-growing cells, healthy or not. That’s why people have terrible tastes, stomach problems, hair and skin problems during chemo; those are all fast-…

https://bmccancer.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12885-... > Conclusion > [Short Term Fasting] during chemotherapy is well tolerated and appears to improve QOL and fatigue during chemotherapy. https://jeccr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13046-019-... > Abundant and convincing preclinical evidence shows that STF can decrease toxicity and simultaneously increase efficacy of a wide variety of chemotherapeutic…

> I feel like this is sufficient to refute your several oncologists' anecdotal opinions which are not supported by the research.

It's not. Unless you have the appropriate training and experience, you are not capable of making treatment recommendations.

Sorry if that seems harsh, but this is not something you can just Google your way through. This is not one of those things where you can find the hidden truth by reading a few things online and posting citations.

You either have medical training or you don't. If you don't, be very careful about make big medical decisions based on a few things you read online. Plenty of people apply the same heuristic to decide that vaccines are bad, homeopathy works, you can treat cancer with an all-fruit diet, etc.

> You have to be very careful relying on the advice of oncologists. Think about what their motivations are. What are their biases?

Think about what your motivations and biases might be. You're human too.

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#116

Post by arcticbull » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 4:29 AM UTC

tryptophan wrote: post #64

arcticbull wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The glycerol backbones in triglycerides also undergo gluconeogenesis.

Yes. Red blood cells literally can only eat glucose. Without it you would be super dead. I find it amusingly absurd how so many people here seem convinced that our primary food source is somehow a poison. People with 0 carbs in their blood are colloquially known as 'dead'. I wonder if people even know what ketone bodies are... They are a downstream product of glucose processing(also downstream of fats - the inputs ar…

Glucose is definitely food for humans, I think what the discussions here and more generally in nutrition are about lately is where it should come from. Carbs are the only nutrient with a minimum daily intake of zero. Carbs are optional, as to your point, your liver will synthesize all you need to exist or you would be dead. What that process doesn’t come with as much of is a direct spike in insulin and insulin has a lot of downstream effects.

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#117

Post by ksaun » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 4:41 AM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #75

anon1m0us wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my research, yes it can. I read a study that said patients who fast during chemotherapy treatments fare better too. The mechanism seems to be that during periods of fasting, normal cells "hunker down" and restrict the consumption of nutrients and other materials. Cancer cells don't do this though and continue to consume the nutrients, which are actually chemotherapy drugs in the patients. Fasting therfore increa…

This information is dangerously wrong. I have asked several oncologists specifically about fasting during chemotherapy and they all recommended strongly against it. Your understanding of how chemotherapy works with cancer and healthy cells seems flawed. Chemo harms all fast-growing cells, healthy or not. That’s why people have terrible tastes, stomach problems, hair and skin problems during chemo; those are all fast-…

After having researched this topic some, I decided to fast prior to my chemotherapy infusions. I cannot comment on its effectiveness as I haven't experienced chemotherapy without fasting, nor long fasts without chemotherapy. I haven't experienced nausea, but have encountered most of the other expected side effects. Maybe their severity is lessened, but I wouldn't know. In any case, it's been thus far endurable. I haven't decided if I'll continue or try not fasting. (Based on the information I found, I've been fasting for a total of ~2.5 days before each 2-week infusion cycle begins and then another ~2.5 days after the first infusion day.)

Here is one of the articles I'd found in my research: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4494906/

I only found preclinical studies. And anecdotal results from others who have tried it. I've been unable to find any good evidence that the efficacy of the chemotherapy is enhanced, only that side effects can be mitigated.

Two oncologists I've seen are not supportive of my fasting but haven't strenuously objected to my decision either.

FWIW, a third oncologist opposed my undergoing chemotherapy at all. I've found, in general, a lack of consensus as to proper treatment, at least in my situation. I've now consulted with seven specialists (four oncologists and three surgeons) and the recommendations haven't been consistent. And most of them decline to give definitive directions, leaving the major decisions to me. My point being that, at least in some situations, following the directions of doctors isn't necessarily an option.

Edit: Added some details

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#118

Post by anon1m0us » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 4:42 AM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #115

anon1m0us wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://bmccancer.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12885-... > Conclusion > [Short Term Fasting] during chemotherapy is well tolerated and appears to improve QOL and fatigue during chemotherapy. https://jeccr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13046-019-... > Abundant and convincing preclinical evidence shows that STF can decrease toxicity and simultaneously increase efficacy of a wide variety of chemotherapeutic…

> I feel like this is sufficient to refute your several oncologists' anecdotal opinions which are not supported by the research. It's not. Unless you have the appropriate training and experience, you are not capable of making treatment recommendations. Sorry if that seems harsh, but this is not something you can just Google your way through. This is not one of those things where you can find the hidden truth by readi…

You appear to be falling victim to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

The research clearly indicates that there is a benefit to fasting, yet you say the research is wrong because of the opinions of several oncologists.

I'm biased because several oncologists told me something that wasn't true.

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#119

Post by johnvanommen » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 4:47 AM UTC

TimSchumann wrote: post #79

omarchowdhury wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You went 60 days without eating?

Yep. Lost 80 lbs in 2 months. Got a few e-mails about this comment already so I'm throwing together a quick summary of what I did, results, and logs I took during the fast. Learned a lot since that fast though, it was over two years ago at this point. Eating is definitely optional if you have the body fat.

For a second there, I thought you were this body builder:

http://contests.npcnewsonline.com/contests/2018/npc_teen_col...

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#120

Post by baked_ziti » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 4:51 AM UTC

maximente wrote: post #95

ilyaeck wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are down to anecdotal evidences here. So as another anecdote, a guy I know went on a carb-free diet and developed diabetes as a result. His body lost the ability to process sugar. Bottom line, most people needs a balanced diet - including carbs that are one of the pillars of nutrition. A given individual's body may be able to compensate for the imbalance on its own, but let's not generalize that to the entire popu…

this makes no sense biochemically. your hypothesis seems to be that a lack of carbohydrates (read: sugar) caused an individual to develop diabetes, but "diabetes" generalizes down to: - the body (pancreas) does not produced insulin at all (type I) - the body's cells are resistant to the produced insulin (type II) we should be able to basically rule out type II because there should have largely been no insulin produce…

> "losing the ability to process sugar" seems really sketchy, because those are all critical cellular processes that don't just go away.

I have no idea as to the validity of this anecdote but the idea isn't unprecedented. For example, correcting an iodine deficiency can cause the same thyroid issues that a deficiency can cause.