Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

acsh.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 158 posts

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#101

Post by dev_dull »

justsomeone88 wrote: post #10
dev_dull wrote: post #6

> your body closely regulates the level of glucose in your blood. Your brain would literally starve without it. Is this actually true? Having done the ketogenic diet and bringing carbohydrates down to almost nothing, my brain definitely didn't starve. In fact, running on ketones was amazing.

No. All the excess protein you likely consumed has actually increased your risk of cancer significantly.

Maybe other people did keto differently than me, but my protein stayed exactly the same. I just switched carbs with fat.

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#102

Post by jcims »

TimSchumann wrote: post #85
rorykoehler wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was fasting for 60 days like? Any negative experiences?

One negative experience, slight hair loss that started approximately 6 to 8 weeks post fast. Maybe 10 to 15% of the hair on my head fell out in total, but it all grew back. One other negative experience but that was due to my own stupidity and I've since learned better. Basically if you're above 15% bodyfat, you only need two things to live. Water and electrolytes. If anyone has any questions, more than happy to answ…

Any liver issues? Did you have any steatosis/fatty liver before? Clear that up at all?

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#103

Post by TimSchumann »

wolco wrote: post #90
TimSchumann wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One negative experience, slight hair loss that started approximately 6 to 8 weeks post fast. Maybe 10 to 15% of the hair on my head fell out in total, but it all grew back. One other negative experience but that was due to my own stupidity and I've since learned better. Basically if you're above 15% bodyfat, you only need two things to live. Water and electrolytes. If anyone has any questions, more than happy to answ…

What was the other thing?

Same thing that gets everyone on a fast, too much water, not enough electrolytes.

Essentially got really really bad cramps in my legs each morning towards the end of the first 30 days. Fixed itself as soon as I added in the magnesium and potassium supplements. Likely caused because I drank too much water during the early parts of the fast.

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#104

Post by anon1m0us »

snowwrestler wrote: post #75
anon1m0us wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my research, yes it can. I read a study that said patients who fast during chemotherapy treatments fare better too. The mechanism seems to be that during periods of fasting, normal cells "hunker down" and restrict the consumption of nutrients and other materials. Cancer cells don't do this though and continue to consume the nutrients, which are actually chemotherapy drugs in the patients. Fasting therfore increa…

This information is dangerously wrong. I have asked several oncologists specifically about fasting during chemotherapy and they all recommended strongly against it. Your understanding of how chemotherapy works with cancer and healthy cells seems flawed. Chemo harms all fast-growing cells, healthy or not. That’s why people have terrible tastes, stomach problems, hair and skin problems during chemo; those are all fast-…

https://bmccancer.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12885-...

> Conclusion

> [Short Term Fasting] during chemotherapy is well tolerated and appears to improve QOL and fatigue during chemotherapy.

https://jeccr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13046-019-...

> Abundant and convincing preclinical evidence shows that STF can decrease toxicity and simultaneously increase efficacy of a wide variety of chemotherapeutic agents.

https://osher.ucsf.edu/patient-care/integrative-medicine-res...

> For general cancer prevention, it may be beneficial to add intermittent or short-term fasts in combination with a plant-based cancer prevention diet

and

>Fasting may also protect patients against the harmful side effects of chemotherapy or radiation therapy.

and

> They concluded that a 3-day fast could help regenerate a strong immune system

> Additional research in both rodents and monkeys have shown that when CR was started by 12 months of age, lifespan was increased and incidence of spontaneous cancers was reduced by 50%.

> Furthermore, it is theorized that cancer cells do not respond to the protective signals generated by fasting, thus leaving them vulnerable to both the immune system and cancer treatment.

I feel like this is sufficient to refute your several oncologists' anecdotal opinions which are not supported by the research.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/324169.php

> There is a growing body of evidence supporting the role of fasting in both cancer treatment and prevention.

Lots of links to sources in that article too.

You have to be very careful relying on the advice of oncologists. Think about what their motivations are. What are their biases? I dealt with this very personally for a long time and found oncologists to be ... human and suffer from all the same problems as other humans.

Their patients are ... dying and they don't want to die. It's a very emotional time for all involved.

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#105

Post by mindviews »

entee wrote: post #68

Cancer favoring glucose has been known for a very long time, this is called the Warburg Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warburg_effect_(oncology) Interesting new pharmacology for sure, but the end of the article is critical here: "Additionally, an accompanying commentary by William Katt and colleagues indicated that there are no FDA-approved drugs that target glucose and glutamine metabolism. This is because pr…

A couple of interesting publications on Glioblastoma treatment that might be pointing in the right direction for targeting glucose and glutamine starting with mouse models: https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-019-0455-x and progressing to human case study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29651419

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#106

Post by LegitShady »

guiambros wrote: post #91
TimSchumann wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, 60 days, first 30 water/salt only, second 30 I added in a few supplements, nothing that could really count as calorie intake though. I also adhered to a strict no coffee/tea policy.

In the other thread you mentioned strict " no flavored anything ". Can you elaborate why not? In my case I tend to feel less hungry after drinking lots of flavored water (e.g., lemon juice or flavored electrolyte powder [1]), but I haven't yet done long fasting. I want to try soon. Also, have you noticed any cognitive decline when you were fasting for weeks? Difficulty concentrating, memory loss, lightheadedness, moo…

not that dude but if you drink sweetened or flavoured waters it produces an insulin response so your body really doesn't enter 'fasting' the same way.

water, black coffee, and salt do not produce this reaction.

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#107

Post by mindviews »

newen wrote: post #58
anon1m0us wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my research, yes it can. I read a study that said patients who fast during chemotherapy treatments fare better too. The mechanism seems to be that during periods of fasting, normal cells "hunker down" and restrict the consumption of nutrients and other materials. Cancer cells don't do this though and continue to consume the nutrients, which are actually chemotherapy drugs in the patients. Fasting therfore increa…

Got any links to the research? Would be helpful to me and other readers. Thanks.

Here's a description of a "press-pulse" protocol that includes fasting, calorie restriction, and ketogenic diet scenarios (main goal seems to be to limit glucose intake as part of the treatment as part of an effort at stressing the energy systems of the cancer cells to cause cell death): https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10... Check the references for some other papers on fasting and chemotherapy. Also, here's a related human case study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29651419

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#108

Post by TimSchumann »

GiorgioG wrote: post #84
TimSchumann wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of carbohydrates you need in your diet to survive is exactly zero. They’re a non-essential macronutrient. The amount of glucose you need in your blood stream to keep everything running smoothly is a very small amount easily produced by your body through a process called gluconeogenesis. I went 60 days sans any calories and my body self regulated glucose just fine.

I went 21 days with just water and electrolytes. My son is a type 1 diabetic so I had access to a glucose meter to test myself with. My blood glucose level at about the halfway mark was 59mg/dL (for reference, most non-diabetics should be between 70-130.) I won't say fasting for 21 days was the most pleasant experience, but it is entirely doable by the average healthy person. Nice job going 60 days. The hardest part…

I only got glucose/ketone strips around day 35 of the 60. Lowest I recorded was around 50mg/dL, highest was 110mg/dL, with the average being around 75mg/dL or so.

Ketones were always at or near the limit the meter is designed to test for. I think anything over 8.0 mmol/L and it would yell at me to see a doctor. Lowest I recorded was 7.0, and almost every reading was over 8.0. Felt fine the whole time.

Echo what you said about the hardest part being social though.

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#109

Post by TimSchumann »

guiambros wrote: post #91
TimSchumann wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, 60 days, first 30 water/salt only, second 30 I added in a few supplements, nothing that could really count as calorie intake though. I also adhered to a strict no coffee/tea policy.

In the other thread you mentioned strict " no flavored anything ". Can you elaborate why not? In my case I tend to feel less hungry after drinking lots of flavored water (e.g., lemon juice or flavored electrolyte powder [1]), but I haven't yet done long fasting. I want to try soon. Also, have you noticed any cognitive decline when you were fasting for weeks? Difficulty concentrating, memory loss, lightheadedness, moo…

Some unflavored sweeteners have been shown to produce mild insulin responses. For me it was more of a psychological thing, especially on a fast that long.

And no, no cognitive decline whatsoever. If anything I had more energy. Also, I was supplementing electrolytes, and I ended my fast at like 25% bodyfat though, so keep that in mind.

Re: Starving cancer by cutting off its favorite foods

#110

Post by TimSchumann »

dev_dull wrote: post #99
TimSchumann wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the first two weeks, it was a mild background noise. I never even felt ravenous or anything, just 'Eh, it'd be nice to eat again'. Even at the end I felt like I could have gone another 30 days easily. Which, given that I ended my fast at around 25% bodyfat, I probably could have.

What did you finally eat to beak your fast?

Uhh, I have a log of that somewhere one second...

This is day 61, I'd estimate like 4k-ish calories.

  07:51 - Woke to Alarm
  08:34 - Weight 199.8 - Bodyfat 26.1
  08:41 - Start First Meal - Handful of Spinach Wilted in 2 tbsp Butter - 5 Olives - 1 Dill Pickle Spear - 6 oz Pickle Juice
  08:45 - End First Meal
  08:50 - Drank 1/2 Liter Water
  08:57 - Start Sauna 165.0 F
  09:00 - Drank 1 Liter Water
  09:12 - End Sauna 182.5 F
  09:15 - Shower
  10:23 - Finished 2nd Breakfast - Single Egg omelette, cheese, olive oil, more spinach wilted in butter and 3 pickle spears.
  11:35 - Lunch /w Dave - Bunless Burger, Bacon, Cheese, Fried mushrooms, Onions, Pickles and a Fried Egg on top. Salad with blue cheese dressing.
  12:18 - 16 oz nitro cold brew
  13:25 - 32 oz San Peligrino Unflavored Zero-Cal
  16:23 - 5 Guys Bacon Cheeseburger - 2 Patties - Bacon - Mushroom - Lettuce Wrap - Mayo - Side of Mayo
  18:09 - 9 olives - 3 Servings
  19:23 - 9 Jimmy Dean Sausage Links dipped in 6oz Chunky Blue Cheese dressing.
Post reply on HN