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An Update to Our Community and an Apology

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Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#261

Post by NOGDP »

detaro wrote: post #254
NOGDP wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of comment is what makes discussion difficult. You're just alluding to some kind of indecent opinions which offend(?) you, without pointing out anything specifically. I have no idea what you're talking about. All I gleamed from your comment is that 'someone' is responding in some unspecified way which you don't like, and you follow that up with a strawman about 'caricatures' which I have not seen in this th…

"And my preferred pronoun this week is blergl." is very much a caricature and variations of it have been made a few times. As is "Using the wrong gender is enough to cause someone to commit suicide?" when it's pointed out that doing so is part of the pattern they're often harassed with. EDIT: edited, see below

Except you've made both of those quotes up... I can't find any similar comments in this thread by searching for parts of the quoted text you provide. OP is complaining about responses to this article on hackernews, provides zero examples of what he/she is actually complaining about, and you come to support with quotes you made up to match the perceived grievance? Seriously?

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#262

Post by humanrebar »

damnyou wrote: post #237
humanrebar wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A fair percentage of people do not accept the concept of transgenderism, and instead see a transgender woman as a mentally ill man A not trivial amount of the objection is because of the singular 'they' and 'their'. I'll cop to being confused by sentences leveraging those formations. One can appeal to etymology, but even knowing the etymology didn't prevent my confusion. "Be kind" is a good rule. And now there are…

Do any of your friends use they/them pronouns? Most people get used to them with a tiny bit of practice. I've seen Italian, Mandarin, Spanish and Hindi native speakers use them fluently.

"Why are half the rations gone!?" - Inigo

"They said they were hungry." - Vezzini

Ambiguity: Is one person eating too much or did many people get impatient (maybe fine depending)?

It's not just a matter of becoming accustomed. It's definitely more ambiguous.

The only way to clear that pickle up is to get used to clarifying questions as appropriate. Or maybe a "they all" will emerge parallel to "you all", but that sort of thing takes time.

My point is that people asking for singular pronouns should prepare to be patient since, at best, these things take time.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#263

Post by detaro »

NOGDP wrote: post #261
detaro wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And my preferred pronoun this week is blergl." is very much a caricature and variations of it have been made a few times. As is "Using the wrong gender is enough to cause someone to commit suicide?" when it's pointed out that doing so is part of the pattern they're often harassed with. EDIT: edited, see below

Except you've made both of those quotes up... I can't find any similar comments in this thread by searching for parts of the quoted text you provide. OP is complaining about responses to this article on hackernews, provides zero examples of what he/she is actually complaining about, and you come to support with quotes you made up to match the perceived grievance? Seriously?

sigh

I wanted to avoid that, but I have replaced them with copy-pasted quotes to make your searching easier.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#264

Post by anaisbetts »

reccanti wrote: post #209

Some of the responses to this article showcase opinions that I see a lot on Hacker News and which make it really hard to be on this site as a trans person sometimes. There’s a lot of attention being paid to the people who resigned, or whose moderator status was revoked—and how accommodating they may or may not have been—but it seems like very little of them are focusing on the people who this preferred pronoun policy…

Thanks for reminding folx about what this is actually about, this was a great post

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#266

Post by fencepost »

shadowgovt wrote: post #144
fencepost wrote: post #128

This really seems like a "respect mah authoritah!" situation followed by "oh crap it's blowing up, apply more power! This will not be re-litigated." Looking from the outside as someone who's mostly ignored SE for the last few years, this feels to me like something personal combined with making an opportunity. I can't help but feel that the current "Director of Community" at the core of this will be moving to a differ…

You may have been making an interesting point, but the "preferred pronoun of the week" bit at the end kind of kills it. Have you ever met someone who changes their gender identity weekly, or asks people to use a derivation-free nonsense word to refer to them?

I added that bit of snark because a big part of this seems to have been a new (pending) Code of Conduct that apparently could be read as "you're not allowed to use phrasing that would normally be recognized as gender-neutral, you must use individuals' preferred pronouns." I know I'd question that if it meant that (while moderating) I was going to have to go look into what someone's gender pronoun preferences were lest I be accused of violating the CoC.

I haven't read the leaked TL (Teachers' Lounge?) chat transcripts and the whole thing has blown up into a massive drama such that reading all the summaries and resignations and objections and whatnot isn't realistic for me, but I suspect that questions along the lines of "Can I just do this?" were interpreted as challenging the whole new CoC and someone felt like they were being disrespected. The (apparent) summary dismissal outside all existing policies for dismissing moderators would fit with it being a knee-jerk reaction followed by a refusal to back down after a mistake.

Frankly if Monica C hadn't asked for clarification but had simply continued writing in such a way as to avoid using any pronouns this would never have blown up, but I think the question was taken as questioning authority.

Edit: As for the neutral pronoun, yes, more than 20 years ago as part of a community focused around a Usenet group that also had regular social get-togethers all over the country. IIRC, the term(s) in use were zie/zir.

Edit2: And having just done a bit of searching: No, it wasn't alt.polyamory or any related groups, though there might have been overlap in memberships.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#267

Post by ryan-allen »

sam_lowry_ wrote: post #48
kjaftaedi wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious why you would remove moderator status from Monica? From my understanding it appears that she was demoted for merely posing relevant questions. As I don't believe SE has even made any specific claims backing up their decision, I'm curious as to why you suggest this is the correct decision to make.

To send the message to other users and moderators that such discussions are unwelcome. SE has to balance between the need to expand into topics like judaism.stackexchange.com and islam.stackechange.com while remaining a q&a business, not a flamebait-generator business.

They may need to apply separate CoC's to different SE's.

You can't have bona fide Religious SE's and the compelled use of personal pronouns co-exist.

If they think otherwise they are delusional, one will end up waging the other, and dogs only have one tail.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#268

Post by NOGDP »

detaro wrote: post #263
NOGDP wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except you've made both of those quotes up... I can't find any similar comments in this thread by searching for parts of the quoted text you provide. OP is complaining about responses to this article on hackernews, provides zero examples of what he/she is actually complaining about, and you come to support with quotes you made up to match the perceived grievance? Seriously?

sigh I wanted to avoid that, but I have replaced them with copy-pasted quotes to make your searching easier.

The first quote is in bad taste, though the context is not as bad, and the comment as a whole lead to a pretty interesting exchange. I see nothing wrong with the second quote, it is not intentionally made to offend, it's part of a reasonable argument. Even if you disagree, or the author is not as informed as you on the issue - that doesn't mean they should not be saying what they did. The purpose of the comments is to discuss things, not to display your ideological allegiances or be right about everything.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#269

Post by BurningCycles »

dragonwriter wrote: post #169
yourbandsucks wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the hell are pronouns a centerpiece of a CoC? Just be nice to people. For fuck's sake.

> Why the hell are pronouns a centerpiece of a CoC? Because aggressive misgendering including by refusal to use the subject’s preferred pronouns is currently a significant form of harassment which is actively promoted by certain groups. > Just be nice to people. The fact that people aggressively refuse to do that is exactly what pronoun policies are responding to.

What is 'aggressive' misgendering and aggressive refusal ?

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#270

Post by humanrebar »

henrikschroder wrote: post #249
asdjlkadsjklads wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes i consider myself lucky that i don't know anyone seeking special pronouns - because i imagine i would repeatedly use what i visually see, not what they request. These days i seek to find a gender neutral word i can get into the habit of using (it, or they, or something similar) , for fear of mis-nouning someone. Though, i also have the fear that if i use something neutral, when someone requested a specific…

Think of special pronouns as names. All the etiquette we have surrounding names apply equally to pronouns. It's not expected to remember someone's name if you've only met them briefly, but the more you've interacted with the person, the more embarrassing not remembering their name becomes. Mis-naming someone intentionally, repeatedly, is rude and quickly moves into harassment territory. But the flipside is also true,…

> ...if someone has an onerous or complicated preferred pronoun, that person is rude and can't expect others to comply or remember.

To the extent that there is any controversy here, it's in this guideline. I'd just soften 'rude' to unreasonable.

1. I have not seen any code of conduct make room for this scenario. It's taken as a given that pronoun preferences are reasonable.

2. Some people think singular 'they' and 'their' falls in this bucket.

3. Some people think writing in passive voice, etc., should be considered a good faith effort to be accommodating.

Pedantically applied, most codes of conduct make room for the judges and queens to insist on "his honor" and "Her Majesty" as pronouns, at least in some contexts.

I honestly wish some people would decide that this whole thing is too complicated to legislate completely and institute some sort of jury system, at least on appeal, to decide what counts as reasonable.

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