Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists • Hacker News Board

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#91

Post by lkbm » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:34 PM UTC

rantwasp wrote: post #47

vgoh1 wrote: post #17

A few tips from a long-time motorcycle rider... 1. When crossing a car that could potentially accelerate into your path, train yourself to keep a hand on your front brake. 2. Get better at emergency stops. Train your self to "wait for the weight", meaning progressively apply front brake so that the weight of the bike transfers to the front tire before full application. Practice emergency stops so you don't end up wit…

here is a tip: just drive a car. I understand that there are things you can do to lower the chances of getting hit, but at the end of the day there is way more risk associated with this mode of transportation.

"Cars kill too many people on motorcycles, so I'm going to drive a car rather than a motorcycle."

Are you familiar with the prisoner's dilemma?

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#92

Post by lkbm » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

taneq wrote: post #90

lkbm wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a cyclist, I believe that the driver should be held to the higher standard, but also that I can never trust them to live up to their responsibility, so I gotta be ready to stop and/or dodge any reckless maneuver they make. We tend to conflate the moral judgement of responsibility/fault with the actual reality of responsibility. If you're driving a deadly vehicle, the moral burden is on you not to kill me, but I st…

You've chosen to place your life in jeopardy by riding a push-bike in traffic. Surely that bears some consequence?

If I drive a car, I'm choosing to put other people's lives in jeopardy instead. Seems like the bike is the moral choice here.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#93

Post by FussyZeus » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:42 PM UTC

ebg13 wrote: post #87

FussyZeus wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's just my experience, but near every time I see someone pull a boneheaded move, it's a Kia, or a Nissan, or a Hyundai. I'm not saying buying an expensive car means you drive better, there's no link there, but what I will say there is drivers of expensive cars are often more aggressive, occasionally to a dangerous degree, but honestly? I'm relatively okay with that, because they'll cut you off in traffic but…

> I'm not saying buying an expensive car means you drive better, there's no link there, but what I will say there is drivers of expensive cars are often more aggressive, occasionally to a dangerous degree, but honestly? I'm relatively okay with that, because they'll cut you off in traffic but then they race off and that's that. Meanwhile somebody in a shitty Kia SUV is doing the speed limit in the left lane and holdi…

Slow people cause traffic jams, which in turn cause accidents. I've read multiple papers and articles about how slow left-lane travel causes safety hazards for everyone involved due to passing on the right, which is objectively less safe, causing more lane changes than is otherwise necessary for those trying to get around them, and the big one, causing deviations in the "norm" speed in a flow of traffic, which is the single best indicator for where accidents will occur.

I'd be happier still if we could not have people who go too slow or too fast, but failing that and given the choice between, if fast people are left to their business to cruise at whatever speed in the left lane, unobstructed by slow drivers, everyone is demonstrably safer. But because people conflate moving slowly with moving safely, it's considered taboo to say that out loud.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#94

Post by lkbm » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:43 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #80

lkbm wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a cyclist, I believe that the driver should be held to the higher standard, but also that I can never trust them to live up to their responsibility, so I gotta be ready to stop and/or dodge any reckless maneuver they make. We tend to conflate the moral judgement of responsibility/fault with the actual reality of responsibility. If you're driving a deadly vehicle, the moral burden is on you not to kill me, but I st…

> held to the higher standard This I disagree with. For better or worse, we are typically the ones who are riding on roads designed and built for them. We need to be held to the same standards, if not higher standards as motorcyclists and bicyclists, as we're intentionally playing in their turf, without their safety equipment. If a bicyclist is careless, they are both stupid and negligent. If a car driver is careless…

> is more dangerous to you

Emphasis on "to you". I consider it worse to be careless with other people's lives than with my own. I could cause someone else's death with my bicycle, but it's less common than in a car.

Additionally, I'm not cycling on the highway. I'm cycling on mixed-use roads, the majority of which have bike lanes. None of these are car-only roads. Those do exist, but I don't bike on them.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#95

Post by nguoi » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:43 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #71

nguoi wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn't the other road users expect you to break the law?

You drive with the expectation that someone will be going the wrong way?

Well if you're hit while lane splitting, it's because someone didn't indicate or look

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#96

Post by foxyv » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:44 PM UTC

taneq wrote: post #90

lkbm wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a cyclist, I believe that the driver should be held to the higher standard, but also that I can never trust them to live up to their responsibility, so I gotta be ready to stop and/or dodge any reckless maneuver they make. We tend to conflate the moral judgement of responsibility/fault with the actual reality of responsibility. If you're driving a deadly vehicle, the moral burden is on you not to kill me, but I st…

You've chosen to place your life in jeopardy by riding a push-bike in traffic. Surely that bears some consequence?

Often there is no other alternative. If you ride a bike for transportation, you have to live with traffic. Trails and bike lanes are almost non-existent. If you ask, most cyclists would love to not ride in traffic. We are always advocating for dedicated trails and protected lanes so we don't have to ride with large vehicles.

I would be fine restricting bikes to trails and dedicated bike lanes, if they existed. In the meantime we have to find a way to live together, like roommates in an apartment.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#97

Post by nguoi » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:45 PM UTC

pedanticlawyer wrote: post #84

nguoi wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The list of potential actions another road user can do includes malicious punishment passing, failing to stop behind you, and intentional collisions. There is nothing the rider can do to stop these without stopping riding altogether. You also can't brake to avoid a car that goes into the side of you. At some point, you have to trust others to obey the rules of the road. An article like this is not zero-sum, it doesn'…

> You also can't brake to avoid a car that goes into the side of you. I wear a biker tailbone protector and a back protector + an helmet when I go snowboarding and I'm an amateur snowboarder at best that rarely goes in the park and rides at mediocre speed. Why I usually don't see cyclists wear some of them protections?

Why don't drivers? Driving is the biggest killer of young people.

Any vehicle you use for commuting is for convenience. Strapping into armour makes it harder so we don't expect it of drivers while we do expect it of extreme sports.

Supposedly the health benefits of cycling outweigh the dangers of the road but I've never looked into it.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#98

Post by scarface74 » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:48 PM UTC

nguoi wrote: post #95

scarface74 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You drive with the expectation that someone will be going the wrong way?

Well if you're hit while lane splitting, it's because someone didn't indicate or look

And if you are hit while driving the wrong way, is it also because someone wasn’t looking? The lane splitter did something they knew was illegal (in the jurisdiction in question), why should I be on the lookout for illegal behavior?

From even a practical standpoint, if I’m on a motorcycle, I know that I’m at an increase risk of injury. Why wouldn’t I be more careful?

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#99

Post by brudgers » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:48 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #44

taneq wrote: post #18

As a motorcyclist and defensive driver I find these kind of articles worrying, because they imply that riders are rolling around trusting other people not to hit them. The first rule of motorcycling, that you accept when you swing your leg over a bike, is that no matter whose fault any collision might be, it is your responsibility and yours alone to anticipate and avoid all such incidents. "But he pulled out in front…

It’s interesting to me: As a fellow motorcyclist, I agree with your philosophy wholeheartedly. But most bicyclists (who are arguably at more risk from a car/truck than a motorcyclist) disagree with this just as wholeheartedly. I seriously wonder why this dichotomy exists, especially as bicycles are gaining electric motors capable of propelling them at higher and higher speeds.

Bicyclists suffer political disability under [typical US] traffic laws. Bicyclists are not afforded a full traffic lane when traveling. Bicyclists are prohibited from the highest quality roads. Bicyclists are required to ride on the shoulder. Even the best laid bike lanes don't give cyclists the right of way. Many many bike routes are shared with pedestrians.

Motorcyclists on the other hand enjoy first class status under typical traffic laws.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#100

Post by ebg13 » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 3:05 PM UTC

FussyZeus wrote: post #93

ebg13 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not saying buying an expensive car means you drive better, there's no link there, but what I will say there is drivers of expensive cars are often more aggressive, occasionally to a dangerous degree, but honestly? I'm relatively okay with that, because they'll cut you off in traffic but then they race off and that's that. Meanwhile somebody in a shitty Kia SUV is doing the speed limit in the left lane and holdi…

Slow people cause traffic jams, which in turn cause accidents. I've read multiple papers and articles about how slow left-lane travel causes safety hazards for everyone involved due to passing on the right, which is objectively less safe, causing more lane changes than is otherwise necessary for those trying to get around them, and the big one, causing deviations in the "norm" speed in a flow of traffic, which is the…

> I've read multiple papers and articles about how slow left-lane travel causes safety hazards for everyone involved due to passing on the right

This is a false dichotomy. There is in fact a third, safer alternative when driving already at the speed limit, which is not passing at all. Again you've chosen to prioritize convenience (speeding) over safety.