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Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

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Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#41

Post by rantwasp »

timwaagh wrote: post #36

i'm a lifelong (nonmotor) cyclist finally learning to drive. what i notice is that driving is a lot more complex than cycling. you have so little space and so much vehicle. you have to stay in lane, take care when cornering. you are ultimately relying on cyclists or pedestrians not to do anything rash because the chances of you being concentrated on something else when a sudden crossing happens are significant. In wh…

you have to stay in your lane and pay attention even as a cyclist.

the consequences of a mistake are the ones that are really different - but on the upside you way less likely to get seriously hurt in a car vs riding a bike.

on top of that: it’s really fascinating for me to see people putting the burden of their own physical safety on other (ef if you know that a driver has practically a zero chance of seeing you in a situation why not protect yourself? it doesn’t matter that you’re right if you’re dead)

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#42

Post by CalRobert »

FussyZeus wrote: post #31
ebg13 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Drivers have to sort threats in terms of risk...At some point we are going to have to stop blaming the driver for stuff like this Missing from your response is that there are both risks FROM and risks TO. We absolutely need to blame dangerous drivers for failing to prioritize the second category.

I mean, it's their fault to be sure, but can you blame them? Drivers have had nearly a century of society bending over backwards to suit them. We rewrote pedestrian law to give cars the right of way in all but a few select spots. We built a highway system and cut neighborhoods square in half to make road travel easier. Driving has become far too casual, too "just a thing you do." People don't respect it anymore. I'm…

"people rolling around in cheap, crappy cars who have no respect and no interest in driving"

I enjoy driving, and should mention that in some ways the most fun I ever had was in a $500 1990 Nissan Sentra. Plenty of people in fancy cars dgaf about the act of driving, and plenty of folks in cheap cars (especially ones where keeping them running these days is a labor of love) care more than you might think.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#43

Post by nguoi »

taneq wrote: post #18

As a motorcyclist and defensive driver I find these kind of articles worrying, because they imply that riders are rolling around trusting other people not to hit them. The first rule of motorcycling, that you accept when you swing your leg over a bike, is that no matter whose fault any collision might be, it is your responsibility and yours alone to anticipate and avoid all such incidents. "But he pulled out in front…

The list of potential actions another road user can do includes malicious punishment passing, failing to stop behind you, and intentional collisions. There is nothing the rider can do to stop these without stopping riding altogether. You also can't brake to avoid a car that goes into the side of you.

At some point, you have to trust others to obey the rules of the road. An article like this is not zero-sum, it doesn't have to make your riding any less defensive.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#44

Post by falcolas »

taneq wrote: post #18

As a motorcyclist and defensive driver I find these kind of articles worrying, because they imply that riders are rolling around trusting other people not to hit them. The first rule of motorcycling, that you accept when you swing your leg over a bike, is that no matter whose fault any collision might be, it is your responsibility and yours alone to anticipate and avoid all such incidents. "But he pulled out in front…

It’s interesting to me: As a fellow motorcyclist, I agree with your philosophy wholeheartedly. But most bicyclists (who are arguably at more risk from a car/truck than a motorcyclist) disagree with this just as wholeheartedly.

I seriously wonder why this dichotomy exists, especially as bicycles are gaining electric motors capable of propelling them at higher and higher speeds.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#45

Post by gowld »

FussyZeus wrote: post #31
ebg13 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Drivers have to sort threats in terms of risk...At some point we are going to have to stop blaming the driver for stuff like this Missing from your response is that there are both risks FROM and risks TO. We absolutely need to blame dangerous drivers for failing to prioritize the second category.

I mean, it's their fault to be sure, but can you blame them? Drivers have had nearly a century of society bending over backwards to suit them. We rewrote pedestrian law to give cars the right of way in all but a few select spots. We built a highway system and cut neighborhoods square in half to make road travel easier. Driving has become far too casual, too "just a thing you do." People don't respect it anymore. I'm…

It's wrong to conflate conspicuous consumption with quality. Expensive cars are usually bigger and more dangerous. It's also wrong to conflate cars and driving. Loving cars doesn't make you a safer driver, and may well be the opposite, since it focuses your attention on your vehicle and not the social interaction of driving.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#46

Post by CalRobert »

scarface74 wrote: post #5

My first thought was that the motorcyclist in the picture almost deserves to be hit for driving illegally and dangerously between two cars - ie lane splitting. But from the comments, it does seem to be legal some places. But, in all other states in the US besides CA, it is explicitly illegal. It still seems unsafe even it is legal.

A lot of things that "seem" unsafe to people who only drive will seem a lot different if you try other forms of transit. When pedal-cyclists take the lane (ride in the middle) it's not to piss you off, it's to make sure you see them or don't try to pass if unsafe, but plenty of people are surprised I don't just ride in the gutter or door zone, "for safety".

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#47

Post by rantwasp »

vgoh1 wrote: post #17

A few tips from a long-time motorcycle rider... 1. When crossing a car that could potentially accelerate into your path, train yourself to keep a hand on your front brake. 2. Get better at emergency stops. Train your self to "wait for the weight", meaning progressively apply front brake so that the weight of the bike transfers to the front tire before full application. Practice emergency stops so you don't end up wit…

here is a tip: just drive a car. I understand that there are things you can do to lower the chances of getting hit, but at the end of the day there is way more risk associated with this mode of transportation.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#48

Post by gowld »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #7
FigmentEngine wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

like shisa kanko or "pointing and calling" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling

When i saw that for the first time (in a tram in Nagasaki, as I recall) I first thought the driver is a few fries short of a happy meal. It looks so weird to Western eyes. Then later reading up about it it actually makes a lot of sense. Some more material to read up on it: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/pointing-and-calling-j...

No need for the irrelevant racism. Safety procedures aren't an inherent part of Eastern cultures.

Some US transit agencies do the same point and call.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#49

Post by alosarv »

imglorp wrote: post #23

There's a second factor at work beyond memory - it's the human visual perceptive system. Bikes are not always moving across the visual field, and they aren't fitting the pattern of a bigger single-color smooth object so it's effectively camouflage. This is an outstanding vid on the whole subject illustrating the problem and some avoidance methods. This should be taught in rider training but it's not (US). https://www…

Also an excellent video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x94PGgYKHQ0 - tongue-in-cheek but highly relevant "invisibility training for motorcyclists" by FortNine

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#50

Post by gowld »

timwaagh wrote: post #36

i'm a lifelong (nonmotor) cyclist finally learning to drive. what i notice is that driving is a lot more complex than cycling. you have so little space and so much vehicle. you have to stay in lane, take care when cornering. you are ultimately relying on cyclists or pedestrians not to do anything rash because the chances of you being concentrated on something else when a sudden crossing happens are significant. In wh…

You simply forgot how hard it was to learn to ride a bike, and you aren't accustomed to driving yet.
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