China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains • Hacker News Board

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#261

Post by outside1234 » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:44 PM UTC

Gibbon1 wrote: post #148

melling wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depressing?!? It’s incredibly exciting! The United States wasn’t going to build these. Americans have been making excuses since the 1970s. Jerry Brown tried to build the CA bullet train 4 decades ago. Electric cars, electric buses, bullet trains, low-speed maglevs, high speed maglevs... China is making it happen! In America, all we want is “drill, baby, drill”

> Jerry Brown tried to build the CA bullet train 4 decades ago. Amusing to me he did the Rip Van Winkle and popped up as Governor again after 30 years. In office he pushed hard to get CHSR built. Every time California's high speed rails come up on HN it's obvious that everyone here hates the idea. So the US is getting what it's collectively asking for and deserves here.

We hate the idea of a "high speed" rail that connects 15 central valley "cities", but I'm all for San Francisco to San Jose to LA without other stops.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#262

Post by mhandley » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:44 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #79

saberience wrote: post #28

So, as someone that lived in New York for 6 years and California for 6 years, stories like this are incredibly depressing. The US is the world's largest economy and should be the shining example of amazing infrastructure, high-tech, green cities, and forward thinking policies. California is an especially egregious example in terms of infrastructure investment: If California was a country it would be the world's fifth…

My father in law can fly from Los Angeles to San Jose in an hour for $150 round trip. Not sure why we need to lay tracks all over the land when we have flying machines.

In Europe, it's just starting to be regarded as anti-social to fly. Enough so that it's noticable in increased train travel and decreased air travel: https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/flygska...

Not clear yet if this is the early stage of a global trend, and even it it is, it may take a long time to have an effect in the US, where there are fewer good alternatives.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#263

Post by usaar333 » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:44 PM UTC

nikofeyn wrote: post #183

usaar333 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative to being stuck in traffic for hours is flying. A major problem with train systems in the United States (and this is both short and long haul) is that almost the entire country is sprawl - built around the automobile. In dense environments (China and the north-east coast of the US (which has Acela), it's great to take a train into the core -- you beat traffic and are near your destination. In sprawling…

> A major problem with train systems in the United States (and this is both short and long haul) is that almost the entire country is sprawl - built around the automobile. this is an excuse i have repeated myself, but it is just that, an excuse. have you actually been to china? i have never seen such sprawl. shanghai is massive and sprawling. but yet, they (china) have extremely efficient and unbelievably cheap train…

Been to China many times actually. I wouldn't call Shanghai sprawl in the American sense. Yes it is huge, but what matters is that driving isn't a quick way to get around the city (there are no quick ways to get around the city, just like NYC) so you don't end up needing a car to live or travel.

Agreed though that the Acela cooridor is the most reasonable place for the US to invest in high speed rail

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#264

Post by MrFlynn » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:45 PM UTC

Gibbon1 wrote: post #249

MrFlynn wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you wanted to build an HSR line through a long coastal mountain range most of way from SF to LA further driving up the cost, having it go the majority of the distance through a relatively flat valley definitely has its benefits. I do think that the line should have paralleled i-5 instead of going through Bakersfield and Fresno, but that's not the choice that was made.

Bakersfield and Fresno metro's are about half a million people each. And also the current planned route is close to Santa Cruz and Monterrey Counties which adds another 3/4 of a million people. No matter how you slice it the original route is going to leave some people out.

If you count Gilroy as close to Santa Cruz and Monterrey, then sure. But the planned line does take a hard east turn through the Pacheco pass into the central valley south of Gilroy.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#265

Post by factsaresacred » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:45 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #215

saberience wrote: post #28

So, as someone that lived in New York for 6 years and California for 6 years, stories like this are incredibly depressing. The US is the world's largest economy and should be the shining example of amazing infrastructure, high-tech, green cities, and forward thinking policies. California is an especially egregious example in terms of infrastructure investment: If California was a country it would be the world's fifth…

The simple truth is, transportation projects are not created to solve problems but instead of pay off political affiliates, be they donors, family members, political parties, or the unions. Democrats have no more interest in high speed rail or energy independence than Republicans and for the same reason. Oh they will pay lip service saying otherwise but you can see the results of all those years they have made their…

> high speed rail is romanticism from bygone days when rail was the only alternative to long distance travel

Yes, the 'bygone days' of maglev trains. I don't know if you've ever travelled in Japan or China but the convenience and comfort of high speed rail easily surpasses flying. And in many cases, so does the speed.

In most normal countries, rail is critical transport infrastructure. It's not a conspiracy.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#266

Post by wil421 » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:45 PM UTC

BAReF00t wrote: post #178

wil421 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile in America we have a world class freight system between America, Canada, and Mexico that’s unrivaled anywhere else in the world. Europe uses trucking which is less environmentally friendly[1] than rail. The United States also runs the largest rail system in the world[2] vs any country (and the combined EU[3]). Europe is leading the world in electrification and they are likely getting that power from greener…

Keep telling yourself that… Here in Europe, we actually use mostly trains. Trucking is for the smaller deliveries, like some five bathtubs from Sweden to Germany. And we use trains for humans too. The reason your trains are so long is because they need to go so far. While around here, we use more local products. As we are still actually separate countries, not one big lowest common denominator culture mush. ;)

That is not the case at all[1]. I appreciate the thought out post and tone /sarcasm.

For further reading.[2]

> The picture for freight is different. According to Panorama 2009 , 46 percent of EU-27 freight goes by highway while only 10 percent goes by rail, while in the U.S. 43 percent goes by rail and only 30 percent by road. (In both cases, nearly all of the rest is waterways and pipelines.)

So, it isn’t so much that Europe decided to move people by train rather than by automobile. It is more that Europe decided to use its railroads to move people while the United States decided to use them for freight. America moves almost six times as many ton-miles (or tonne-kilometers) of freight by rail as Europe, while both move about the same number of tonne-kilometers by road. While Europe moves about twice as many tkm of freight by waterway as the U.S., we move six times as much oil by pipeline.

[1] https://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=11847

[2] https://www.freightwaves.com/news/railroad/us-and-european-f...

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#267

Post by usaar333 » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:46 PM UTC

kurtisc wrote: post #259

usaar333 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cities are dense, unlike American ones

I'm not aware of any city-local maglev trains. American cities are still spread out from one-another.

I think you are misunderstanding my point. The issue in America is that you tend to need a car to navigate within a city (metro area). Far less true in China.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#268

Post by hunter-gatherer » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:47 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #245

polemic wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> high speed rail is romanticism from bygone days when rail was the only alternative to long distance travel. air travel pretty much superseded it and is doing so all over the world. This isn't true. High speed rail is alive and well in Europe. Geography, politics and history are all significant factors that you can't explain so easily. > the advent of self driving and electric cars will doom them regardless Highly s…

But there are plenty of chinese infrastructure projects that have languished for lack of use. Look at the olympic venues. Once the novelty of ribbon cutting is over, once the recuring costs start piling up, this project too may slow down.

China's olympic venue isn't the most fair example, though. A handful of countries have let theirs fall to waste not long after the fact.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#269

Post by Someone » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:48 PM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #110

beerandt wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't looked at the particulars for this project, but typically the practical limit of high speed rail is 300-500 miles. Beyond that, it's cheaper and greener to fly. If you aren't concerned with cheap or green, and want to focus on fast... Then high speed rail might be a better option until the TSA is involved.

Since when is air ever greener than rail? Everything I've seen puts air at a hugely higher carbon impact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transport... doesn’t show huge differences in energy usage per passenger-kilometer, so _if_ both get powered by burning oil or coal, I would think the carbon impact isn’t hugely different, either.

Reason probably is that, at long distance, lower air resistance at height starts to count.

Also, it’s easier to move planes around than to move rail tracks around, so if a destination is popular for only a short time (say for the Olympic Games, or for the hajj (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Abdulaziz_International_A...), it may be energetically cheaper to build and (basically) discard an airfield than to build and (basically) discard a long rail track.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#270

Post by pmontra » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:49 PM UTC

saberience wrote: post #28

So, as someone that lived in New York for 6 years and California for 6 years, stories like this are incredibly depressing. The US is the world's largest economy and should be the shining example of amazing infrastructure, high-tech, green cities, and forward thinking policies. California is an especially egregious example in terms of infrastructure investment: If California was a country it would be the world's fifth…

> Why on earth isn't there a high speed rail between these cities?

Any big economy has big incumbents.

> Can you imagine the impact of being able to train from San Diego to LA in 30mins?

Can you imagine what airlines and aerospace companies would think about it?