China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains • Hacker News Board

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#211

Post by astrodust » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

usaar333 wrote: post #163

saberience wrote: post #28

So, as someone that lived in New York for 6 years and California for 6 years, stories like this are incredibly depressing. The US is the world's largest economy and should be the shining example of amazing infrastructure, high-tech, green cities, and forward thinking policies. California is an especially egregious example in terms of infrastructure investment: If California was a country it would be the world's fifth…

The alternative to being stuck in traffic for hours is flying. A major problem with train systems in the United States (and this is both short and long haul) is that almost the entire country is sprawl - built around the automobile. In dense environments (China and the north-east coast of the US (which has Acela), it's great to take a train into the core -- you beat traffic and are near your destination. In sprawling…

It's not sprawl, it's that the United States, and by extension Canada, have extensive freight rail systems but almost zero exclusively passenger rail networks.

In Europe and Asia these networks are generally separated.

The American model means that passenger trains need to be built to freight-train safety standards, that a passenger car must be engineered to "survive" a potential collision with a freight train, since that is a possibility.

American passenger trains don't own their right-of-way, and freight companies really don't care about high-speed anything since their business model doesn't require it.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#212

Post by lostlogin » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

saberience wrote: post #28

So, as someone that lived in New York for 6 years and California for 6 years, stories like this are incredibly depressing. The US is the world's largest economy and should be the shining example of amazing infrastructure, high-tech, green cities, and forward thinking policies. California is an especially egregious example in terms of infrastructure investment: If California was a country it would be the world's fifth…

I get that rail could be a lot better in the US, but I took a journey there by rail and was really impressed. Clean, prompt and easy. My benchmark is New Zealand so keep that in mind.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#213

Post by gkanai » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

dis-sys wrote: post #81

Sadly, China has already wasted too much money on the so called high speed rails running at 300-350km per hour. I was looking at my HSR options from Shanghai to Xi'an (1,500km distance) yesterday, the fastest train takes almost 6 hours and there is only one everyday. That 6 hours ride costs me almost $100 USD while $120 USD can covers my flight to Xi'an in 2.5 hours and I can choose the time of my flight. $20 extra t…

Domestic flights in China are often delayed due to weather or congestion in route because the People's Liberation Army Air Force control the airspace too tightly. Shanghai-Beijing HSR takes longer than air flight but in certain times of year, when delays are common, HSR can be competitive, plus you are online the entire time.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#214

Post by Robotbeat » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 9:47 PM UTC

geogra4 wrote: post #3

As fast as a jetliner, and way more efficient. Can be powered without fossil fuels. This is the future. Where is America on HSR?

Not fundamentally more efficient, UNLESS in a Hyperloop-like vacuum tube (as this one is). Let’s consider at near sea level.

At near sea level, the drag at those speeds is absolutely brutal. Airplanes win, although they’re harder to electrify.

If you extrapolate current Maglev designs to 1000km/h, for energy consumption per passenger mile is about 0.5kWh/(passenger-mile).

Airplanes are on the order of 100mpg/passenger, or 0.33kWh/(passenger-mile) even with the relatively low conversion of chemical energy to mechanical in a jet engine. An electric aircraft could get about 0.1-0.2kWh/(passenger-mile) with the same airframe if the battery chemistry is appropriate for that flight length. Improve the airframe, and Length of electric flight is limited, but 1000km is possible with current chemistries. America’s near-term HSR routes are on the order of 500km, so electric flight is feasible.

This is why “Hyperloop” (or vacuum trains generally) are and were a good idea at the high end for high speed rail, in spite of all the mocking that Elon Musk incurred for the idea (which he/SpaceX popularized and funded student competitions for, although the idea is an old one). Otherwise airplanes win on efficiency.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#215

Post by Shivetya » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 9:48 PM UTC

saberience wrote: post #28

So, as someone that lived in New York for 6 years and California for 6 years, stories like this are incredibly depressing. The US is the world's largest economy and should be the shining example of amazing infrastructure, high-tech, green cities, and forward thinking policies. California is an especially egregious example in terms of infrastructure investment: If California was a country it would be the world's fifth…

The simple truth is, transportation projects are not created to solve problems but instead of pay off political affiliates, be they donors, family members, political parties, or the unions. Democrats have no more interest in high speed rail or energy independence than Republicans and for the same reason. Oh they will pay lip service saying otherwise but you can see the results of all those years they have made their claims and promises.

The elected and appointed officials of both parties serve their parties first. The party is more important than any one elected official and certainly more important than the voters.

high speed rail is romanticism from bygone days when rail was the only alternative to long distance travel. air travel pretty much superseded it and is doing so all over the world. the advent of self driving and electric cars will doom them regardless. In an authoritarian state like China the state can tell people were to live which makes it far easier to put services where those people are. Let alone the one item ignored is that much of the population does not travel long distance and that holds true for many countries. So rail is more of a benefit for the well to do and it makes a great jobs program and political payday as well

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#216

Post by throwaway361278 » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 9:49 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #208

robofanatic wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can't just say, "Your land is ours, get the fuck out, construction begins in one week" didn't they say that when they arrived 400 years ago

> didn't they say that when they arrived 400 years ago Didn't x say y 1,000 years ago? You're talking about different people: literally, morally, culturally - in most every way in other words. What does the average American today have to do with someone that came over from the British Empire in September 1620? The Pilgrims were not a mixture of German, African, Mexican and Chinese. Today is not 400 years ago.

Because you benefit from what they said/did 400 years ago.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#217

Post by ARandomerDude » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 9:49 PM UTC

baby wrote: post #152

saberience wrote: post #28

So, as someone that lived in New York for 6 years and California for 6 years, stories like this are incredibly depressing. The US is the world's largest economy and should be the shining example of amazing infrastructure, high-tech, green cities, and forward thinking policies. California is an especially egregious example in terms of infrastructure investment: If California was a country it would be the world's fifth…

Living in San Francisco and seeing homeless people everywhere, it really doesn't feel like one of the biggest economies.

Your feelings are wrong.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#218

Post by Aaronstotle » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 9:51 PM UTC

vonmoltke wrote: post #182

navigatesol wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Public transportation is seen as inconvenient and for lower class people, so large transit projects like this get no traction. You will never see executives or politicians taking trains to work like you do in European countries. Except in NYC. I disagree. This is a chicken-or-egg problem. Nobody is inherently against public transit. Having commuted in a few cities in North America, it's far more comfortable than si…

> Nobody is inherently against public transit. I knew plenty of people in the suburbs of Dallas who were against public transportation and any expansion of DART out to their towns. It was usually accompanied by talk of "that element" coming up from the city to rob their houses. It was fucking ridiculous, but unfortunately these people exist and need to be dealt with in order to get transit projects through.

Option seems simple, don't give them a choice in the matter. Say we're building X, it will be done to improve public transit.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#219

Post by noetic_techy » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 9:52 PM UTC

tyfon wrote: post #174

usaar333 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative to being stuck in traffic for hours is flying. A major problem with train systems in the United States (and this is both short and long haul) is that almost the entire country is sprawl - built around the automobile. In dense environments (China and the north-east coast of the US (which has Acela), it's great to take a train into the core -- you beat traffic and are near your destination. In sprawling…

Flying easily adds 1-3 hours to the trip just for bullshit and boarding and stuff so there is a certain distance where the high speed trains are faster. It's also way more comfortable and relaxed. I prefer train over driving when I'm going somewhere too.. well until I discovered lane assist functions in modern cars that is :) But I can't yet work while driving so I guess the train wins in overall productivity. Flying…

Exactly. We would be better off disrupting the BS of air travel then building out train networks. I've often dreamed of a world that comes to its senses and realizes that adding all the extra bull to flying hasn't done any good and there was a consistent effort to eliminate it all.

Imagine if flying was as easy as getting on a train or bus. Buy a pass. Sign up for a slot on a flight online. Show up DIRECTLY to the gate (your are pre-cleared by TSA and AI verified your face on exit of the vehicle). Someone else or some automated car mover parks your car, drop your bag off IMMEDIATELY on a conveyor belt and forget about it (let some AI system handle its tracking and tagging), then just board with a valid pass. No lines, no checkin process, no bag tagging, per-screened, no fuss. In your seat within 5 minutes of exiting your car. Similar experience on the backend. You exit, grab your bag quickly (not sure how this would work, mass bag pile or some tech to quickly exfiltrate your bag from the plane), then get on a shuttle to a rental car center or bus/taxi/uber center to wherever you are going. Or some automated car mover retrieves your car from a parking garage and has it ready for you outside. Maybe even has your bags carried by drone to it quickly.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#220

Post by dmitrygr » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

A train at M0.8 near ground level? The very first derailing/crash/etc will demonstrate quite well why this is a poor idea. Planes are quite far from anything easily damageable when they go this fast.