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Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

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Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#281

The claim of catching 99% of activity is really hard to justify. In many detection systems you cannot know your true number of false negatives. It's inherently unknowable in this case. A better metric would be mean time to detection for a given CEP sharer or perhaps a metric around how much CEP is shared before detection, or perhaps a metric for network size of CEP and how well FB can clean up an entire network at on…

> There has to be some nuance from the absolute privacy folks on this one. How do we balance the need to fight child abuse with privacy?

I'll try my hand here:

You're talking about this as "preventing child abuse" versus "privacy". The former is pretty concrete, while the latter is pretty abstract. But allowing government to invade everyone's privacy has concrete effects. Let's be clear here: in 2013, 2.2 million people were incarcerated in the US.[1] 1 in 5 is locked up for a nonviolent drug offense[2]--that's 440,000 people. And 540,000 people are incarcerated because they can't afford bail. It's unclear from the graphs on that page how many are locked up for child abuse, but the total incarcerated for rape and sexual assault convictions is 163,000 people in state jails, which by all accounts is where most rape and sexual assault convicts end up. It's unclear how many of those rape and sexual assault cases were convicted due to evidence from surveillance, but I think we can assume that it wasn't all of them. And in case it's not clear, quite a few of those unethically incarcerated will be raped[3]. In short, unethical incarceration is a much larger threat, by the numbers, than child abuse.

We've seen time and time again that violations of privacy are publicized as being used to prevent terrorism and child abuse, but immediately are then used to prosecute nonviolent drug offenders.

What it comes down to for me is that I trust average citizens to do the right thing more than I trust the law. The vanguard of law enforcement is average citizens picking up the phone and calling the police when they see something wrong, and I want to keep it that way. I trust the average person to call the police when they witness a crime like murder, rape, or child abuse, and not call the police when they witness drug possession. I do not trust law enforcement to enforce the law as ethically. Pervasive surveillance takes that power out of the hands of citizens and puts it in the hands of law enforcement who has time and time again shown themselves to be untrustworthy with that power. It's dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.

And that's in the current US. In the past, US law has been even more wrong. For example, US law enforcement was used to suppress, for example, civil rights activists. That time may come again. It has always been beneficial to let illegal behavior slide under the gaze of law enforcement when that illegal behavior wasn't unethical behavior.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St...

[2] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2019.html

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape_in_the_United_Stat...

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#283

If they don't do E2E, users will abandon Facebook for platforms that do support it (and already are). And they aren't doing this to commit crimes, but to prevent advertisements from targeting every conversation they've ever had.

People are so much on board with govt surveillance, and so indifferent to privacy technology that it is now the duty of tech to teach people the tools they should use. If , of course, tech is on the side of true privacy

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely sure how those four examples are supposedly invalidated by giving them a clever nickname. I'll take the privacy side in most any discussion of privacy-vs-security, but categorically denying the possibility that some crimes could be aided by encryption seems a step to far. It's also bad PR strategy: anybody not already on your side will be put off by your apparent lack of reasoning skills. Instead, ac…

> I'm not entirely sure how those four examples are supposedly invalidated by giving them a clever nickname. They're not. A number of horrible things will happen as a result of pervasive end to end encryption. However. You have to run the numbers here. On the one hand, perhaps a bit more crime, some of which horrible. On the other hand, the privacy of everyone . It's a hard sell. Just picture a politician on live tel…

> We rarely condone murder in the name of the betterment of humanity: some tried, didn't go so well.

sounds like "War" to me.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely sure how those four examples are supposedly invalidated by giving them a clever nickname. I'll take the privacy side in most any discussion of privacy-vs-security, but categorically denying the possibility that some crimes could be aided by encryption seems a step to far. It's also bad PR strategy: anybody not already on your side will be put off by your apparent lack of reasoning skills. Instead, ac…

> I'm not entirely sure how those four examples are supposedly invalidated by giving them a clever nickname. They're not. A number of horrible things will happen as a result of pervasive end to end encryption. However. You have to run the numbers here. On the one hand, perhaps a bit more crime, some of which horrible. On the other hand, the privacy of everyone . It's a hard sell. Just picture a politician on live tel…

It is not that simple. Two potential unintended consequences of this no-encryption rule come to mind that might actually not just not help, but in fact make it worse for the victims.

1. They said that FB captures 99% of those illegal activities by themselves. What makes us think that government will be able to capture that last 1% on their own?

2. Encryption gets removed, potential perpetrators move to another platform that uses encryption and doesn't have the capability to catch those illegal activities that FB already catches using their internal systems. Congrats, now those perps that would have been caught (even if FB implemented the encryption) won't be caught at all.

And with the uncertainty that comes to mind with both of those points, one thing that is definitely guaranteed to come is further erosion of personal privacy.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#286
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Second Great CryptoWar: https://reason.com/2013/03/12/the-second-great-crypto-war/ > "The proponents of this process use fear tactics to win support, what the four cypherpunks dub "The Four Horsemen of the Info-pocalypse: child pornography, terrorism, money laundering, and the War on Some Drugs." In other words, laws passed to go after child pornographers, terrorists, money launderers, and drug dealers end up chi…

I'm not entirely sure how those four examples are supposedly invalidated by giving them a clever nickname. I'll take the privacy side in most any discussion of privacy-vs-security, but categorically denying the possibility that some crimes could be aided by encryption seems a step to far. It's also bad PR strategy: anybody not already on your side will be put off by your apparent lack of reasoning skills. Instead, ac…

There are ways for them to investigate via warrants. That covers all use cases for FBI/CIA/cops. They don't need any other techniques. It's the only logical interpretation of the US constitution to modern electronic communications. Otherwise you become what China is currently.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#287
post #59

For those of you opposed to this request from the government, what do you think the negative consequences are for end to end encryption? Do you think there are no negative consequences or are they just negligible? Just try and imagine what the cost might be, how broad the impact might be and who and how many would bear the brunt of those costs. Nobody really cares about your personal Facebook messages to your friends…

You make the mistake of assuming the watchmen have and will always have noble intentions. Rather, you should assume that at some point, someone in power will have the most ignoble intentions. What do you think the negative consequences are for a government to have a permanent record of every private conversation made over the Internet? Bear in mind that the fraction of all private conversations which occur over the I…

You didn't address my question though. You're just thinking about the cost to you personally if you don't have end to end encryption. I'm asking you to think about the cost of having it. What's the cost. Compare that probably real cost, a thing that is a real problem right now, with your own personal alarm at some future imagined problem.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#288
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In light of all the Epstein stuff, it sure sounds like "were raping children, so don't implement end to end encryption, or someone might rape your children." I'd say it's ballsy, but with how publicly they executed Epstein right under our noses, it seems like they just don't face punishment for breaking the rules and want to rub it in our faces. It's not like any of us would get away with that. Fucking pathetic. The…

Epstein committed suicide. Did you miss the news coverage? And I’m not sure what the AG has to do with Epstein’s crimes. Did you get some people mixed up?

> And I’m not sure what the AG has to do with Epstein’s crimes. Did you get some people mixed up?

The AG is a loyalist to and subordinate of the President, who was an associate of Epstein and who was also at one point accused of having had Epstein procure an underage girl for sex.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#290
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100%. There is no convenience that would ever convince me to have an always on listening device in my home. PRISM was proof that governments pressure tech companies to become sources. How to build a program to retain power: 1) Make new tech that is very convenient but has potential to become surveillance vector. -> e.g, Phone with voice recordings, fingerprint Face ID, location data, network of friends. Smart TV, sma…

> There is no convenience that would ever convince me to have an always on listening device in my home. Many smartphones have this, and will respond to "Ok Google" or "Hey Siri". Do you view this differently?

Doesn't even have to be a smartphone. Every telco is compromised and they can deploy whatever software they or their overlords want to the baseband processor.
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