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Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

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Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#91

Post by Kinnard »

saagarjha wrote: post #5

> We are writing to request that Facebook does not proceed with its plan to implement end-to-end encryption across its messaging services without ensuring that there is no reduction to user safety. Oh, so you’re asking for more end-to-end encryption? > While the letter acknowledges that Facebook, which owns Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, and Instagram, captures 99% of child exploitation and terrorism-related content t…

The Second Great CryptoWar: https://reason.com/2013/03/12/the-second-great-crypto-war/

> "The proponents of this process use fear tactics to win support, what the four cypherpunks dub "The Four Horsemen of the Info-pocalypse: child pornography, terrorism, money laundering, and the War on Some Drugs." In other words, laws passed to go after child pornographers, terrorists, money launderers, and drug dealers end up chipping away at everyone's privacy. The classic example is the PATRIOT Act, passed to prevent terrorism but soon used to expand wiretapping and National Security Letter powers in other contexts."

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#92

Post by NeedMoreTea »

mprev wrote: post #81

Forgive the OT comment but in the UK we have a soft drinks manufacturer named AG Barr, most famous for Irn Bru. I spent a few moments trying to understand what had led to the manufacturer of Tizer, Irn Bru, and various other traditional British soft drinks getting involved in this. https://www.agbarr.co.uk/

You're not the only one. I was wondering what FB might have done to Irn Bru to provoke the response... :)

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#94

Post by throw0101a »

brunoTbear wrote: post #79
snarf21 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of that, so these crimes didn't exist before mobile phones? They just want to sit in the ivory tower and see everything. I'll also agree to this the day after Barr hands me his unlocked personal phone. I promise not to disclose anything I find.

You may be radically underestimating the degree to which the Internet has made it possible for people who abuse children to share content. In some cases, these crimes truly couldn't be perpetrated without the anonymity of the Internet, and the existence of these clustered communities of pedophiles encourages further abuse/exploitation. I love the Internet, and my career is in security. But we as a security/privacy/te…

> terrorists, drug dealers, pedophiles, and organized crime

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalyp...

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#95

Post by noego »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #78
wonderwonder wrote: post #12

Sometimes I can understand the willingness to reduce the privacy of self and others in order to ensure that the law is able to prosecute those involved in heinous crimes. Our current political environment though involved a president openly calling on foreign governments to investigate his political opponents. What is to stop them from going after the private communications of those same opponents in the name of targe…

> Encrypt it, end to end, the government does not need to be able access all private communications of private citizens. Law enforcement and security agencies need to be able to access any communication. This does not mean that they should monitor all communications. They can eavesdrop on any phone call. They do not eavesdrop on all phone calls. The problem with E2E encryption is that it prevents eavesdropping even w…

If someone could magically build a system that allows for the communication to be eavesdropped only by the allowed government agency, my objections would be dramatically reduced. But that's not the way tech works. Building one backdoor makes the entire system, and all users, vulnerable to a whole host of other malicious actors, including hostile foreign nations and unscrupulous hackers. We live in a world today where anyone can be hacked, even major institutions and corporations like NYTimes, Yahoo and Sony. We desperately need systems that are more secure, not less.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#96

Post by mikhailt »

s3r3nity wrote: post #18

Question for those more knowledgeable than I in this space: a huge value prop for iMessage is E2E encryption, correct? Why hasn't that gotten similar response from the AG? (OR has it already, and I may have missed it?)

They did go after Apple, remember the FBI vs. Apple court cases about forcing Apple to backdoor the entire OS to get to the user's data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93Apple_encryption_d...

As for Facebook, it is more likely because Facebook is in "progress" of enabling E2E and they have more users than Apple right now. It is easier to hit Facebook now than later unlike in the case of Apple that already implemented it from the start; it would go into court litigation for several years and most likely end up in Supreme Court.

Barr is just assuming FB will cave in.

PS: No, a huge value prop for iMessages is that it's built into iOS and any iPhone user can talk to another iPhone user, not because of E2E. Most users aren't aware of what E2E is.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#98

Post by mytailorisrich »

dmix wrote: post #88
mytailorisrich wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Encrypt it, end to end, the government does not need to be able access all private communications of private citizens. Law enforcement and security agencies need to be able to access any communication. This does not mean that they should monitor all communications. They can eavesdrop on any phone call. They do not eavesdrop on all phone calls. The problem with E2E encryption is that it prevents eavesdropping even w…

The police have more than enough data to do their jobs without having sweeping surveillance powers. Even with E2E the police can get warrants for the devices which is usually more than enough to access data. They just want an easier job, it’s not a major roadblock. When police jobs being easy is a good sign that privacy has been completely destroyed.

One of the points of eavesdropping is that the target is unaware of it, which enables the police to gather more evidence about more people.

E2E is not required for privacy. There is also a difference between privacy and the right to privacy, and a guarantee that no-one will ever be able to know what I'm doing.

There is no absolute, including absolute right. It's all about balance: We have a right to privacy but the police may search our homes and eavesdrop on our communications in strict, specific circumstances because that's in the public interest. The idea is simply to have the same online.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#99

Post by throw0101a »

lelibertaire wrote: post #85
wonderwonder wrote: post #12

Sometimes I can understand the willingness to reduce the privacy of self and others in order to ensure that the law is able to prosecute those involved in heinous crimes. Our current political environment though involved a president openly calling on foreign governments to investigate his political opponents. What is to stop them from going after the private communications of those same opponents in the name of targe…

Exactly. And we have evidence of similar behavior occurring. COINTELPRO was a thing that actually happened and should be brought up every time privacy rights and government surveillance is discussed

Also, warrantless tapping of glass:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A

* https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/10/new-docs-show-ns...

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#100

Post by dang »

mprev wrote: post #81

Forgive the OT comment but in the UK we have a soft drinks manufacturer named AG Barr, most famous for Irn Bru. I spent a few moments trying to understand what had led to the manufacturer of Tizer, Irn Bru, and various other traditional British soft drinks getting involved in this. https://www.agbarr.co.uk/

Wow, that's quite a stretch for a title ambiguity: attorney general or soft drink?

Submitted title was "AG Barr Will Ask Zuckerberg To Halt Plans For End-To-End Encryption".

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