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Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

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Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#251

The claim of catching 99% of activity is really hard to justify. In many detection systems you cannot know your true number of false negatives. It's inherently unknowable in this case. A better metric would be mean time to detection for a given CEP sharer or perhaps a metric around how much CEP is shared before detection, or perhaps a metric for network size of CEP and how well FB can clean up an entire network at on…

Well, why bring privacy into the fray at all? I'm not saying online systems for catching child abuse can't be implemented. But is it really where our efforts would be most effective? The question should be: how do you combat child abuse? For that, we need: 1- Strong reporting systems that connect the people who in contact with children (doctors, teachers, social workers) and centralize and distribute that information…

The tension between privacy and child abuse is laid out in the linked NYT piece (which I also recommend reading): many of the images and videos of child sex abuse are created because they can be shared. They can be shared because the creators have some confidence they can do so without getting caught. Once the content is discovered, the authorities also have a difficult time finding that child, who may still be in danger. This situation is orthogonal to the (very necessary) steps you outlined.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#252

The claim of catching 99% of activity is really hard to justify. In many detection systems you cannot know your true number of false negatives. It's inherently unknowable in this case. A better metric would be mean time to detection for a given CEP sharer or perhaps a metric around how much CEP is shared before detection, or perhaps a metric for network size of CEP and how well FB can clean up an entire network at on…

It's easy to detect a vast amount of child porn, simply because the vast majority of child porn sharing is just a few thousand different files, shared over and over again. A few hundred thousand files if you count the non-nude and nude "child modelling" stuff, too.

You can catch a majority of such content just by running a dumb hash over the bits, even though the detection rate suffered a little thanks to dumb smartphone users who will screenshot everything instead of sharing the files, thus creating "new" content.

If you add some simple "content hashing", like https://pypi.org/project/dhash/ or Microsoft PhotoDNA https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/photodna you can catch an astounding number of content shares, something which really looks great in press releases. My guess would be that the vast, vast, vast majority of those 18M reports that letter mentions came from automated engines detecting the "common" content with dumb bit or content hashes. But you really didn't do much except annoy and scare some online pedophiles* who shared the same 10, 20, 40 year old content* and maybe even put a few of them away for good or caused them to kill themselves. And yet, you almost never actually prevented ongoing child rape and other abuses.

The problem however is that you absolutely cannot catch new content that way. Content that isn't widely shared but shared between two people or in rather small groups. These small groups have elaborate vouching and proving systems in place, and are hard to infiltrate, going as far as having to prove yourself by sharing a picture of you victim holding a sign with a time stamp and some passphrase.

facebook aimed their AI at porn so they might catch some of this new content by accident; it's porn after all. Then again, my hopes aren't that high, seeing Microsoft's bing fucked up even removing the known child abuse content from search results even as the company runs the PhotoDNA database I mentioned before. And google's AI is "clever" enough to think black teens are gorillas, but they are supposed to catch child porn?

Also, those dedicated child abuse content producers do read the news and know not to use facebook or twitter. Most of them do, anyway.

There is essentially three types of pedocriminals I have observed: the aforementioned part time online pedos who share the same old child abuse content but do not actually produce it or abuse children in the real world, a group of active pedophiles who do not care about getting caught because they live in places where they do not actually have to fear the police investigating them, and a cautious group who might use common public services to make initial contact and talk a little in code but will immediately exchange tox ids etc or at least link to "how to setup qtox over tor"* guides (I saw a few "groomers" do just that), and never share anything incriminating over a public service. My guess is that they are be behind tor or a VPN even when using those public services.

And there is a small number of dumb fucks too who will get caught easily and who end up in the press, and, of course, a probably quite large group of pedophiles who just abuse children but do not tell anybody about it, especially not on the internet.

The majority of people you'd actually want to neutralize because they engage in ongoing child abuse you will not catch on facebook or twitter or whatever. I sometimes liken it to catching a lot of drug users, but not the dealers let alone the drug producers.

Not that my experience dealing with the police is much better. The average time for them to get back to you is a few months if they are from the West, and usually never in other parts of the world, even if they have dedicated groups and/or tip lines. Maybe sometimes they do investigate without acknowledging the reports you sent, I don't know, but it is my feeling that probably not. I don't want to blame the individual police officers and detectives who have to deal with this shit, it's probably all due to lack of resources and institutional support.

But to shit a bit more on the police: I saw some chats with essentially reverse-grooming, where a "girl" started off telling how "wet" she is and how much she likes dicks and only then that she is only "13". After learning about "her" age the dude then usually quickly leaves, but often only after having posted some personal information already. I later learned that such "girls" are either the police "child grooming" units, or blackmailers. I don't even want to know how many of the grooming cases that actually go to court are a result of this tactic, catching stupid horny wannabe pervs, while the actual groomers go free. Burning resources like this instead of using them to catch the truly evil and nasty people again seems to be a political decision.

Source: personal experience from having to deal with this shit occasionally, and having caused some pedophiles to go to prison.

* There have been a few studies that found that the group of people consuming child abuse media and the group that actually molests and rapes children doesn't have too much overlap, contrary to what one might expect.

A lot of the "common" content is rather old, like digitized VHS tapes and magazine scans, or stuff like "1st st" (the producer of which went to prison like 10 years ago) or the East European nude "modelling" stuff from the early 2000s, or webcams from a time when webcams had half a megapixel. There is some newer stuff, like "Rbn" and "Rgirls", but that's the exception. And if you try to fill in the blanks and google any of this, you're stupid and/or evil; don't.

* I have had a few tell that to my face, taunting me to report them to their local police.

I am singling out tox/qtox because at least at in the recent past it seems to have been the goto tool for security conscious pedophiles, based on my personal observations.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#253
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some crimes can also be aided by whispered in-person conversation. Should we require all in-person conversation to be shouted near a government office? The societal default used to be that substantially all conversations were inaccessible to the government except through testimony. Encryption does nothing to change the availability of information through testimony. Previously, remote conspirators could collaborate th…

Sharing unlimited copies of child abuse videos is a new kind of crime, which whispering would not have aided.

Why should anyone give a shit? Sharing unlimited copies of child abuse videos does not actually hurt anyone.

I for one am not willing to give up any freedoms in order to prevent the sharing of such vile material. Perhaps the creation, but not the sharing.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#254
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Second Great CryptoWar: https://reason.com/2013/03/12/the-second-great-crypto-war/ > "The proponents of this process use fear tactics to win support, what the four cypherpunks dub "The Four Horsemen of the Info-pocalypse: child pornography, terrorism, money laundering, and the War on Some Drugs." In other words, laws passed to go after child pornographers, terrorists, money launderers, and drug dealers end up chi…

I'm not entirely sure how those four examples are supposedly invalidated by giving them a clever nickname. I'll take the privacy side in most any discussion of privacy-vs-security, but categorically denying the possibility that some crimes could be aided by encryption seems a step to far. It's also bad PR strategy: anybody not already on your side will be put off by your apparent lack of reasoning skills. Instead, ac…

> I'm not entirely sure how those four examples are supposedly invalidated by giving them a clever nickname.

They're not. A number of horrible things will happen as a result of pervasive end to end encryption.

However.

You have to run the numbers here. On the one hand, perhaps a bit more crime, some of which horrible. On the other hand, the privacy of everyone.

It's a hard sell. Just picture a politician on live television having to choose between having this cute little child being raped for years before they commit suicide (letting the perpetrators off the hook), or ramp up the surveillance a bit. Picture them choosing rape.

Nevermind the false dichotomy. The horrible fact is, the value of human life is not infinite. A mere inconvenience, suffered by enough people, is worth killing a few. Such situations rarely present themselves. (We rarely condone murder in the name of the betterment of humanity: some tried, didn't go so well.) End to end encryption (and metadata hiding while we're at it), is such a situation. The harm, though hard to perceive, is significant, affects everyone, and can potentially grow into full blown totalitarianism (possibly enforced by incentives rather than violent policing).

Preventing that is totally worth killing a few children… or at least spend resources on properly policing the problem, like going undercover.

Still, go say that on TV. I'm not even sure I'm safe writing it here.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#255

"We are writing to request that Facebook does not proceed with its plan to implement end-to-end encryption across its messaging services without ensuring that there is no reduction to user safety." Isn't the entire point of E2E Encryption for user safety, as in safety from the government reading your message?

Of course. That's exactly why they don't want E2E encryption.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#256
post #224

> We are writing to request that Facebook does not proceed with its plan to implement end-to-end encryption across its messaging services without ensuring that there is no reduction to user safety. Oh, so you’re asking for more end-to-end encryption? > While the letter acknowledges that Facebook, which owns Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, and Instagram, captures 99% of child exploitation and terrorism-related content t…

In light of all the Epstein stuff, it sure sounds like "were raping children, so don't implement end to end encryption, or someone might rape your children." I'd say it's ballsy, but with how publicly they executed Epstein right under our noses, it seems like they just don't face punishment for breaking the rules and want to rub it in our faces. It's not like any of us would get away with that. Fucking pathetic. The…

Epstein committed suicide. Did you miss the news coverage?

And I’m not sure what the AG has to do with Epstein’s crimes. Did you get some people mixed up?

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#257

The claim of catching 99% of activity is really hard to justify. In many detection systems you cannot know your true number of false negatives. It's inherently unknowable in this case. A better metric would be mean time to detection for a given CEP sharer or perhaps a metric around how much CEP is shared before detection, or perhaps a metric for network size of CEP and how well FB can clean up an entire network at on…

There has to be some nuance from the absolute privacy folks on this one. How do we balance the need to fight child abuse with privacy?

This doesn't seem like a valid line of reasoning to me. Just because there are pros and cons to encryption does not mean that the right answer must be a nuanced balance where individuals cannot have completely private communication.

The nature of encrypted messaging is that you don't really have a middle ground. Either there is a way for two entities to privately communicate, or all communications are inspected for content by a central party. I believe that allowing private communications is the option that is more suited to the American tradition of free speech.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#258
post #16

I hate these requests for government back doors into tech communication software in the name of "the children". Let the parents worry about and protect their own children. Let the government mind its own business and stay out of ours.

And if the parents are the abusers, then it's okay? I am still pro E2E encryption, especially given the Snowden revelations (the US gov cannot be trusted to be responsible), but it does come at a high cost. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/28/us/child-sex-...

How would E2E encryption help catch parents who abuse their kids? It might help in a minority of cases where they stupidly discuss it or share images but that's a small fraction of abusers. Certainly not enough to justify blocking encryption.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#259
> ... without ensuring that there is no reduction to user safety.

Australian here. Does "user safety" include journalists not being raided and/or prosecuted for publishing public interest material? For example, likely evidence of war crimes by some of our soldiers.

As has begun happening here, after laws were introduced forcing our telco's to allow monitoring of anyone.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#260
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Second Great CryptoWar: https://reason.com/2013/03/12/the-second-great-crypto-war/ > "The proponents of this process use fear tactics to win support, what the four cypherpunks dub "The Four Horsemen of the Info-pocalypse: child pornography, terrorism, money laundering, and the War on Some Drugs." In other words, laws passed to go after child pornographers, terrorists, money launderers, and drug dealers end up chi…

I'm not entirely sure how those four examples are supposedly invalidated by giving them a clever nickname. I'll take the privacy side in most any discussion of privacy-vs-security, but categorically denying the possibility that some crimes could be aided by encryption seems a step to far. It's also bad PR strategy: anybody not already on your side will be put off by your apparent lack of reasoning skills. Instead, ac…

The same crimes can be aided by accepting any other form of payment than credit card.
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