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Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

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Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#761

Post by pzo »

dx87 wrote: post #333
LandR wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THis might be a stupid question, but where are Warning shots fired? Are they fired close to the target, but far enough away to miss? Can this only be done if there is no one behind the target, are they shot into the sky? If so is their no danger of bullets hitting people falling back down? Or do they lose enough speed on the downward arc to be safe? Or is the chance of a warning shot hitting someone innocent so stagg…

I live in the USA, and the only place I've ever seen warning shots being recommended was by the military in Iraq when civilian vehicles would drive too close to a convoy. If a gun is used, it's because you feel that your life or someone elses is in imminent danger. Warning shots can ricochet and kill someone, and bullets can still come down with lethal force if a warning shot is fired into the air. Shooting to maim i…

I was skeptical in the beginning that "bullets can still come down with lethal force if a warning shot is fired into the air" but I guess you are correct. Mythbusters were testing this in one episode and [1]"Because of this potentiality, firing a gun into the air is illegal in most states, and even in the states that it is legal, it is not recommended by the police. Also the MythBusters were able to identify two people who had been injured by falling bullets, one of them fatally injured"

[1] https://mythresults.com/episode50

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#762

Post by solidsnack9000 »

specialist wrote: post #752
solidsnack9000 wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Switzerland, people can not actually buy those guns, I don't think. They are issued by the military to pretty much everybody, that's true -- but they are kept on base these days, not at home. One of the big differences between US gun culture and Swiss gun culture is that in the US we believe in a certain right "to enjoy arms", to keep and bear them in an undisciplined and disorganised way.

Other big differences are identity and profit motive.

Profit motive?

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#763

Post by goatinaboat »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #294
goatinaboat wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the government will win in the game of “who has more guns and power”, just as it would in the USA After Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq it literally boggles my mind that anyone still believes that. In fact Afghanistan twice, the Mujaheddin defeated the Soviets the same way.

Well... the mujaheddin had US-supplied shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles. That did help them a bit...

True, but the US has more helicopters than the Soviets, and the Taliban don’t have Stingers anymore, and they’ll still be there long after the US has quit

“You have the watches, but we have the time”

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#764

Post by remarkEon »

coryfklein wrote: post #446
kaolti wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would be infinitely better off. I don't understand this sentiment of "even with guns it's not gonna work so let's just roll over and take it". If you personally don't think you'll be better off that's fine, but surely you get that if someone WANTS to fight tooth and nail in self-defense he should be given a chance to do so.

Really?! Like somehow having Hong Kong in rubble and surrounded by the largest army in the world is a better situation? If Hong Kong had to rely on force of arms to win its independence, then it's defeat is nearly a foregone conclusion. They just do not have the capacity to stand up to the LARGEST ARMY IN THE WORLD. Maybe, MAYBE an armed conflict in Hong Kong would sway the U.S. to intervene, but the U.S. is so avers…

I love this.

Hong Kongers don’t need the 2nd Amendment because “maybe” the United States will start WWIII over their protests, which they started after realizing that integration with China will actually happen.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#765

Post by beefalo »

ct0 wrote: post #96
mc32 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it the opposite way, the tanks become a last resort. They have to use hard power rather than alternatives.

Have tanks ever rolled in on a human rights protest in the USA?

https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-08-14/why-are-police-using-...

Not quite a tank, but it is an armored military vehicle.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#766

Post by ridewinter »

jfim wrote: post #666
cwkoss wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is unfortunate that so many Americans don't know about the history of the Black Panthers. In US public school system, we are taught that the Civil Rights Act was won through peaceful marching - this is not the whole story. Black Panthers carried guns to protect protests, and having guns created a situation where cops could not rush in and beat dissent into submission. There is a strong argument that withou…

> Any discussion of gun control in America must account for the self-defense rights of Americans who do not have adequate protection from the police. Interestingly, that would be most of them, with the supreme court ruling that the police does not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm. https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-po...

Owning a gun makes it 2-3x more likely someone in your family will die by a gun. So it makes you less safe, not more. https://slate.com/technology/2015/01/good-guy-with-a-gun-myt...

And it definitely makes it less safe for the rest of us in society.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#767

Post by marvin »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #32
schuke wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m from the mainland and totally with HK’s cause. But I do think the violence is at least unnecessary if not detrimental to the movement. If tanks roll in, there’s no point using violence as they’ll be crushed. If they don’t, it seems to me there’s enough space for peaceful protests, which can be even more effectual in many ways. And the people of Hong Kong have shown an incredible amount of creativity in non-violen…

> the violence is at least unnecessary if not detrimental to the movement Judgement is complicated by documented evidence of undercover Hong Kong police dressing up as protesters and acting like belligerent idiots [1]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/22/world/hong-kong-police-pr...

This always happens. It's the most effective way to create the illusion of legitimacy for using violence to kill peaceful protest. The French police have been doing it for ages.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#768

Post by ethbro »

kube-system wrote: post #744
mikeyouse wrote: post #741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of specific guns, namely rifles designed for military use. Shotguns, pistols, and low-capacity rifles are still fine.

I don't think the military uses too many small caliber semi-auto rifles. Any modern military rifle I can think of was banned for new sale in 1986.

5.56x45mm? Aka .223 Remington?

7.62x51mm? Aka .308 Winchester?

Only two of the most common NATO standards.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#769

Post by tepidandroid »

markus_zhang wrote: post #458
UIZealot wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I'm getting used to it so I ceased to comment on the main post whatever. People can believe in what they believe in and it's fine for me. You probably should do the same, too.

Yup, I've given up ages ago. When confirmation bias has hit supercritical level like it has here, there's nothing anyone can say anymore that will change the minds of those holding the consensus opinion.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#770

Post by PhasmaFelis »

dmix wrote: post #185
woutr_be wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been fairly critical of protestors before, but in this instance, you can see the police going in for a fight, already heavily outnumbered. I'm not sure what they expected to happen, but the officer drew his gun almost instantly and shot a high school kid at point blank range. There's been other instances today where police was just looking to fight protestors, and as soon as they realized protestors weren't havi…

> There's been other instances today where police was just looking to fight protestors And protestors obviously looking to fight police. They swarmed the other officers partner who was being beaten on the ground and he was next. I find it shocking so many people were expecting him to just take it the beating or 'run away' and leave his partner there. There's a very good argument for having police on the streets when…

> I find it shocking so many people were expecting him to just take it the beating or 'run away' and leave his partner there.

That's what the protesters are expected to do.

Attacking the police was definitely a bad idea, especially for strategic reasons--this illustrates why Ghandi and King preached 100% passive resistance. Protesters can allow themselves to be brutalized for months, and the moment a few of them hit back, the narrative starts to shift to "violent thugs."

If you want to retain the moral high ground in the face of organized propaganda, you're not allowed to physically defend yourself even once.

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