Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests • Hacker News Board

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#451

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:01 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #419

dragonwriter wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm usually not a huge fan of the US rolling in and stomping out governments (and installing their own, of course), but this is one faux-dictatorship where it sorely needs to happen. It's not a faux dictatorship, it's the real deal. But, the idea of the US “stomping out” the PRC (or even somehow “just” rejecting it from Hong Kong) and installing its own preferred government is downright insane.

It's not insane, but it would be a horrible and bloody hot war, the likes of which we haven't seen since WWII, and it would probably eclipse WWII in total deaths. But it's not "insane", because we have precedent for it: it's exactly what happened in WWII: the world's largest economies and industrial powers going into an all-out war, culminating in nuclear attack, and resulting in the deaths of tens of millions. It's…

> It's not insane, but it would be a horrible and bloody hot war, the likes of which we haven't seen since WWII

Uh, no.

The US overt, initial war aim would be an existential threat to the Chinese regime, and China is a nuclear power with intercontinental delivery capability. It would see multiple times more total casualties than WWII, and that's just be on the first day that China was convinced that the US was serious about the effort.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#452

Post by rgbrenner » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

coryfklein wrote: post #397

rgbrenner wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't defeat the insurgents in Afghanistan... and that's just the size of Texas. The rocky mountains cover more area than AF; our borders are more porous (the Canadian border is the longest in the world); and our citizens have the most firearms in the world - total or per person (far more than AF or IQ). The US military cant stop insurgents from moving across the border with Pakistan, but they would be able to sto…

> The US military has an urban warfare document that states the number of troops required to secure N population Are you expecting the whole US to join this insurgency/rebellion/civil war? Most of the gun owners today already support Trump - a man who idolizes authoritarianism. Instead of a scenario where the entirety of the U.S. police force quells a rebellion made up of 100% of the gun owning populace, it would be…

The 'whole US'? No, of course not. If an entire city was against the dictator, then they could do what al-Assad did in Syria: gas the entire city. The problem with an insurgency is that most of the population is either for you or at least pretends to be... so it's impossible to find those working against you.. and that support could be active (by fighting themselves) or passive by refusing to report insurgent activity, for example.

IIRC, the minimum force is 1 soldier per 50 citizens. That's enough for the military to be so prevalent in an area that it would be impossible for insurgents to operate. For the US that would be 6 million soldiers (+ soldiers for the unpopulated areas). Those numbers usually don't include civilian police forces, but even if you did include them, the US military would be millions of people short.

But yes, the insurgency needs support from the people. Not a majority, but a network and general support must exist in order for it to survive.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#453

Post by uoaei » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

new2628 wrote: post #431

loquor wrote: post #349

This might sound alarmist, but do you think China is the biggest upcoming global problem after climate change? For two reasons: 1. China has a totalitarian ruling system. They intend to realize George Orwell's 1984. 2. Present-day China essentially has no ethics. Take the US in comparison. No matter how perverse the people in power become and even if they do messed up things, the US has some founding morals and princ…

> biggest upcoming global problem after climate change? maybe, but climate change is around number 20 in that list for me.

You're lucky you get to die soon enough for that to be appropriate.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#454

Post by tempguy9999 » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #394

tempguy9999 wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A dissenting comment that is wrong is a bad comment and deserves downvoting for being wrong. I'm not saying it is wrong, but expecting that democracy means all opinions are valid is a very basic misunderstanding. Very basic.

At the very least it does mean not suppressing opinions that you consider 'wrong'. This is not a discussion on a technical or scientific topic. This is not black and white. In fact, and since someone mentioned the American nationality of HN, the lack of subtlety and the need to see everything in black and white, right or wrong, is a common 'criticisim', so to speak, about Americans.

> At the very least it does mean not suppressing opinions that you consider 'wrong'.

true!

> This is not black and white.

Potentially true, but I feel you're fogging the issue (something that happens a surprising amount of time in these discussions involving china).

I distinguished between dissenting comments and bad comments. While that's not utterly B/W it's actually pretty clear.

> In fact, and since someone mentioned the American nationality of HN, the lack of subtlety and the need to see everything in black and white, right or wrong, is a common 'criticisim', so to speak, about Americans.

Ah good old racism! And it is racism BTW. Americans are crude, stupid and gunslinging morons. Well, I've met a very few like that, very few indeed.

Can I make some obnoxious and unfair generalisations about the chinese? You're OK with that I take it?

I'm a brit BTW.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#455

Post by NilsIRL » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

new2628 wrote: post #431

loquor wrote: post #349

This might sound alarmist, but do you think China is the biggest upcoming global problem after climate change? For two reasons: 1. China has a totalitarian ruling system. They intend to realize George Orwell's 1984. 2. Present-day China essentially has no ethics. Take the US in comparison. No matter how perverse the people in power become and even if they do messed up things, the US has some founding morals and princ…

> biggest upcoming global problem after climate change? maybe, but climate change is around number 20 in that list for me.

What are the 19 first?

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#456

Post by braindead_in » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:03 PM UTC

bdamm wrote: post #418

baddox wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What policies does China have which are expansionist?

The belt and road initiative is fascinating, including their cultivation of Africa. The scheme where they lend poor nations money to build ports and then when the port authority fails to fulfill the repayments, they simply take over the port and basically establish a Chinese base is rather diabolical. From a business perspective it is brilliant but it does seem rather obviously predatory. I consider that expansionist…

Yanis Varoufakis has an interesting take on Chinese economic imperialism. According to him, the Chinese are a benevolent imprealist, trying to achieve the same dominance but with loans rather than guns.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#457

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:04 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #393

loquor wrote: post #349

This might sound alarmist, but do you think China is the biggest upcoming global problem after climate change? For two reasons: 1. China has a totalitarian ruling system. They intend to realize George Orwell's 1984. 2. Present-day China essentially has no ethics. Take the US in comparison. No matter how perverse the people in power become and even if they do messed up things, the US has some founding morals and princ…

What policies does China have which are expansionist?

[deleted]

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#458

Post by markus_zhang » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:04 PM UTC

UIZealot wrote: post #358

mytailorisrich wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation of HK and the rights of the residents have not fundamentally changed since it was ceded to the British in 1842. In fact they have more democratic representation now than during most of their history. It's far from perfect but it's infinitely better than on the mainland. Nothing justifies "resorting to violence" in HK today. The violent actions along with anti-Chinese displays are in fact counterproducti…

[flagged]

I'm getting used to it so I ceased to comment on the main post whatever. People can believe in what they believe in and it's fine for me. You probably should do the same, too.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#459

Post by jhedwards » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:04 PM UTC

loquor wrote: post #349

This might sound alarmist, but do you think China is the biggest upcoming global problem after climate change? For two reasons: 1. China has a totalitarian ruling system. They intend to realize George Orwell's 1984. 2. Present-day China essentially has no ethics. Take the US in comparison. No matter how perverse the people in power become and even if they do messed up things, the US has some founding morals and princ…

> Present-day China essentially has no ethics

Source? I lived in China and didn't ever feel like I was in a place without ethics. Different ethics, sure, but it really looks to me like you simply don't know or understand China.

The Great Leap Forward had nothing to do with routing out values, it was about hyper-fast industrialization, and it failed.

There are real problems with modern China, and, separately, with the CCP, for example a lack of separation of powers and a lack of rule of law. But your statements look much more like fear of the other and demonization of what you don't understand that well reasoned arguments.

If you live in China, you'll experience some things that are much better than they are in western countries. I'm not saying there's any comparison really, but the fact is that the reality is far more complex than you're making it out to be.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#460

Post by diminoten » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:04 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #414

slg wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this basically what the fascist in Germany, the communists in China and the Soviet Union, and countless other examples did? It is weird that people think that Americans are somehow a morally superior people to all the other countries that had already fallen down that path. I mean we are already locking up toddlers in cages and I haven't heard a single report of any push back from the people who are controlling…

Surprised you're downvoted. The U.S. already has one civil war in its history, conducted when the 2nd amendment was in force and even more people owned guns than do today. It played out exactly like what the grandparent said was ridiculous: the respective militaries fired into every rural and urban home, set whole plantations on fire, destroyed their own infrastructure, killed their brothers and extended families, fo…

The second amendment was nothing then like it is today; until 2008 it has been interpreted to mean the states have a right to raise a militia, not as an individual mandate to possess firearms.