Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests • Hacker News Board

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#351

Post by ivanbakel » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:04 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #313

ivanbakel wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US military is made up of professional soldiers. Citizen soldiers are citizens first, and soldiers only when civic duty calls them up.

That's pretty much describing the vast bulk of US military. Citizen Soldiers.

In what way are they citizen soldiers? The statistics I can find suggest that active duty personnel majorly out reserve personnel.

Active duty personnel cannot be considered citizen soldiers because their service is not compulsory and they are full-time professionals, not merely civilians in service.

Reservists might be considered citizen soldiers, if you're a bit loose with the criteria that service must be a compulsory civic duty.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#352

Post by geggam » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:05 PM UTC

moate wrote: post #339

geggam wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be bloody, beyond that no idea. A demonstration like happening in Hong Kong likely wouldnt ever happen. I use the nevada rancher incident as an example. Govt agents backed down from armed "militia" to avoid the bloodshed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff Govt agents

I like to believe that the US government wouldn't fire the first shot, that it would be citizen aggression against them that would spur them into action. But who knows. In the Bundy incident(s) no shots were fired. I believe that's because as much as the Bundy group believe their own bullshit (about land rights and white supremacy and whatnot) they also know that this is a fight about taxation currently and that they…

>The whole incident involve those yahoos is a mess, but a really great example of a militia strong arming the feds (it sucks that the feds screwed the pooch in the trial of the 2016 standoff and let them get off because of procedural misconduct).

As I watch our govt in action I think this is the norm and to be expected.

I am shocked the judge actually let the Bundy's off TBH. I wonder if it wasn't just an appeasement thing. Usually testing the crowns authority ends up poorly

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#353

Post by brobdingnagians » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

Fezzik wrote: post #168

nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

I always find this sentiment a little silly - if the US President went in to full dictator mode and had the support of the military, do you really think a militia of armed citizens would be anything but gnats against the windshield of the United States Armed Forces? And if s/he did not have the support of the Armed Forces, it would not be a very effective dictatorship and you would not even need guns for a rebellion.…

I assume quite a bit of the military would _join_ the citizenry, so yes, they probably would have a fairly good chance combined together. After all, the military in the US comes _from_ the citizenry and have family & friends among the "civilians" and don't feel all that detached.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#354

Post by tempguy9999 » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #247

unethical_ban wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very notion that people want free government and self-determination is a bad thing is why you're being downvoted on an American forum. There is not a lot of support for oppressive governments that commit genocide against religious minorities and put people in prison for political dissidence. You may be playing devil's advocate for the "party" but it comes too close to sounding like you're defending them.

The irony is of course to downvote to hell any dissenting comment in a debate about democratic values and censorship in China...

A dissenting comment that is wrong is a bad comment and deserves downvoting for being wrong.

I'm not saying it is wrong, but expecting that democracy means all opinions are valid is a very basic misunderstanding. Very basic.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#355

Post by dev_dull » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:09 PM UTC

loquor wrote: post #349

This might sound alarmist, but do you think China is the biggest upcoming global problem after climate change? For two reasons: 1. China has a totalitarian ruling system. They intend to realize George Orwell's 1984. 2. Present-day China essentially has no ethics. Take the US in comparison. No matter how perverse the people in power become and even if they do messed up things, the US has some founding morals and princ…

Yes I absolutely do. It’s especially frustrating that politicians speak endlessly about Russia when China is clearly the larger threat to US dominance. Even stories like “senator’s driver of 20 years is Chinese spy”[1] are basically ignored.

1. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/weekly-standard/the-spy-w...

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#356

Post by easytiger » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:09 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #337

easytiger wrote: post #4

Obviously China is evil etc etc. But isn't it pretty obvious these people are physically attacking armed officers as they are retreating? And they are beating up and kicking another downed officer in the head? Whilst I might have sympathy for their cause the kid struck an armed officer with a weapon whilst he wielded a gun as his friends beat another armed officer. I have very little sympathy for anyone who makes suc…

There are two things to unpack here. One is, what it the police officer right there and then supposed to do? Police forces across the world have faced similarly violent protests, and even riots while managing not to shoot anybody. It's part of their job. Police in the UK in riot situations aren't even armed with firearms. Pretty much the only situations in which UK police ever get issued firearms is when facing simil…

I'm afraid that's not even close to an accurate comparison. Indeed I find it entirely disingenuous. There are plenty of armed officers in the UK for a start, I see them most days. Riot police in the UK are supported by authorized firearms officers in most cases.

Secondly most world police forces have weapons, and the citizenry in those countries are aware of that. At the end of the day, a small group of officers were being attacked by a larger group of people. An officer is on the ground being kicked as violently and as brutally as possible. Another officer is being attacked despite warning use of his weapon and I'm afraid seems well within his rights to protect himself here, with unfortunate outcomes.

You cannot excuse the role of the protesters in provoking this action.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#357

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:10 PM UTC

josephdviviano wrote: post #238

bhupy wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US (with its support of the military) has been at war in the Middle East for nearly 2 decades now with insurgents. The argument is not that a rebellious citizenry will necessarily win a war, it's that it will draw out a bloody civil war so long and so expensive as to be a form of mutually assured destruction, the risk of which acts as a check in and of itself.

The fact is that the dictator would still win. The rebellious citizenry would live a life of absolute misery, just as those in the middle east do. The 2nd amendment made a lot of sense when weaponry consisted of horses and rifles, not computer-guided missiles. If there was ever a true US dictator, the 2nd amendment would mostly be used by the oppressed to rob, attack, and oppress one another.

> The 2nd amendment made a lot of sense when weaponry consisted of horses and rifles

Around the time of the founding, there was privately-owned field artillery (and rifles were still in limited deployment).

The second amendment made sense when calling up the militia/posse comitatus was an essential feature of how the government at all levels dealt with internal and external security threats, such that it was not planning to meet such needs with fully professional forces is most cases.

Note that this was true, in both internal and external cases, for much of the life of the Republic though less so over time; for external security the idea was essentially written off after Vietnam with the adoption of the all-volunteer force. For internal security it's just about as dead, though there's not an equivalent milestone.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#358

Post by UIZealot » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:10 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #179

program_whiz wrote: post #13

Sure, the kid was swinging at the officer, and I suppose that warrants the officer acting in self-defense. But another question is, what are the protesters supposed to do? The government has all the power, and can simply snuff out any resistence. If you just stand in the streets, they really don't care, they are going to take your freedom. Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator that just decided they were going to…

The situation of HK and the rights of the residents have not fundamentally changed since it was ceded to the British in 1842. In fact they have more democratic representation now than during most of their history. It's far from perfect but it's infinitely better than on the mainland. Nothing justifies "resorting to violence" in HK today. The violent actions along with anti-Chinese displays are in fact counterproducti…

[flagged]

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#359

Post by raisedbyninjas » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:12 PM UTC

ChrisLomont wrote: post #286

Fezzik wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find this sentiment a little silly - if the US President went in to full dictator mode and had the support of the military, do you really think a militia of armed citizens would be anything but gnats against the windshield of the United States Armed Forces? And if s/he did not have the support of the Armed Forces, it would not be a very effective dictatorship and you would not even need guns for a rebellion.…

The US military requires a massive functioning economy to feed it goods, fuel, food, etc. If enough of the US were rebelling against the govt, the military would fold. And it's likely hard to get troops to shoot their own countrymen. As direct evidence, over the past few decades the US has been unable to stop a vastly smaller, vastly less armed resistance in various regions of the world. Maybe you underestimate the p…

Firearms are faster a killing; it's why we use them. However a military entering a hostile area doesn't just stroll through casually even if they could know for a fact no guns are in the area. They still have to contend with fertilizer bombs, molotov cocktails, suicide trucks, bows and arrows, those 3 watt laser pointers, plus any other improvised weapon. If lasers weren't being banned from war for cruelty would maybe even be more effective at taking combatants off the battlefield than an AR-15.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#360

Post by filoleg » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:12 PM UTC

moate wrote: post #127

ericmay wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same thing that people in Afghanistan did? It's also not cool to characterize people who have assault rifles or support the 2nd amendment as rednecks. I'm certainly not one. It's actually kind of offensive to even use that term anyway if you ask me.

Hello. I grew up surrounded by guns and on food stamps. My parents like cheap beer, low brow humor, my father mostly worked manual labor jobs, and they generally vote "anti-government". Some people call it white trash, others call it rednecks. The term is offensive if you want to be offended. That's fine if you're offended, you have the right to be. As someone who grew up around that life, I call them "hillbillies, H…

>people who own semi-auto

Wait what. Did you mean, literally any rifle that isn’t some antiquated bolt-action one or something like a sniper rifle? Because iirc pretty much any even remotely non-vintage rifle/handgun is semi-auto, aside from a few novelty/specialty guns.