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Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

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Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#711
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US (with its support of the military) has been at war in the Middle East for nearly 2 decades now with insurgents. The argument is not that a rebellious citizenry will necessarily win a war, it's that it will draw out a bloody civil war so long and so expensive as to be a form of mutually assured destruction, the risk of which acts as a check in and of itself.

The fact is that the dictator would still win. The rebellious citizenry would live a life of absolute misery, just as those in the middle east do. The 2nd amendment made a lot of sense when weaponry consisted of horses and rifles, not computer-guided missiles. If there was ever a true US dictator, the 2nd amendment would mostly be used by the oppressed to rob, attack, and oppress one another.

War is not actually a contest to see who is strongest. If it was, then the strongest nations would always fight to the finish and the weaker nations would always be defeated and utterly subjugated. Clausewitz was not the first person to notice that this didn't always happen, nor the first to conclude that war must be viewed as an extension of politics.

As such, dictatorship and imposition of rule through force has to be considered in light of other political options. Oppressive government does not generally start with an all out war to subdue the populace, using strategic weapons like missiles and bombers. Insurrections are managed with lighter arms not because totally destroying the enemy is not a military option but rather because it is not consonant with the relevant political goals.

The right to bear arms isn't about what you do for all out war -- that's when you move from citizen soldiers to building armies -- it's about trimming the distribution at the lower end and improving the odds of the citizenry being able to make it up the food chain in a reasonable amount of time. (Knowing what guns are actually called is a surprising advantage there.) Even Hitler started small, and disarmed the citizenry early.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#712
post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In brief form: he posits that if the law were constrained only to the militia, and not the masses of people that may comprise it, then it would be quite a pointless amendment as the very government it seeks to protect individuals from could undermine it by inaction or neglect in regards to the formation of that militia. It should be noted that the Bill of Rights was originally interpreted to only limit the actions…

Can you elaborate on what you mean in regards to the Bill of Rights being interpreted to only apply to the federal government? This seems to be in contradiction the supremacy clause.

The concept is known as "incorporation"--Wikipedia has a detail here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_of_the_Bill_of_R...

In short, until the 14th Amendment (and even for some time afterwards), it was generally held that the Bill of Rights only bound Congress. The 1st Amendment starts with "Congress shall make no law," explicitly limiting it to the federal government. While the other amendments don't explicitly mention Congress or states, the original proposals did explicitly include mention of states in some of them, which were struck out before being accepted by Congress.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#713
I'm still thrilled at how hypocritically calm the US are about this whole topic and China in general. They're always ready to "export democracy" except when the receiver would be some kind of business partner (or lacks natural oil sources).

So, how long until the US at least express an opinion on the matter?

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a more complete video showing the exact protestor who got shot (with the blue shield) chasing down an officer and then beating him on the ground before attacking the rescuing officer and getting shot. https://twitter.com/bbcchinese/status/1179082367337713666

What happened before that one-and-a-half minute video to cause the protesters to chase down the officer?

I don't know - but is your question meant for us to prove the innocence of the victim here?

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but: - The last round of Legislative Council elections during British rule was effectively by universal suffrage.[1] No LegCo elections after the handover have been comparable. - During British rule, there were also municipal councils and again, council members were eventually elected by universal suffrage. After the handover the entire municipal council system was abolished. - Also during British rule, the…

Any broadening of rights after the signing of the Sino-British Joint Declaration is suspect. These are ploys to alienate the Hong Kong people from China (離間計). They are what we call 陽謀, ploys we will nevertheless fall for even though we know they're ploys. Know your history. How had the British treated the Hong Kong people throughout its history as a colony? How has China treated the Hong Kong people? Honestly? (EDIT…

> Any broadening of rights after the signing of the Sino-British Joint Declaration is suspect. These are ploys to alienate the Hong Kong people from China (離間計).

If you by that mean that giving a place more civil rights and protections against human rights abuses makes it more unlike China, yes, I agree.

And as spacehunt said, British established the independent judiciary which the CCP is trying the dismantle now with the extradition bill and the British also made large scale election reforms, which the CCP rolled back out of fear for democracy.

And, when the CCP can't do anything with the current laws, they kidnap and imprison people for exercising their free speech in Hong Kong. We've waited quite a while now in Sweden for the release of our countryman, the CCP can lend some faith to their insistince that they support "one country, two systems" by releasing him. Anyday now would be nice.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#716

Sure, the kid was swinging at the officer, and I suppose that warrants the officer acting in self-defense. But another question is, what are the protesters supposed to do? The government has all the power, and can simply snuff out any resistence. If you just stand in the streets, they really don't care, they are going to take your freedom. Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator that just decided they were going to…

The full video shows a officer on the ground being beaten with sticks. So it wasn’t just a kid swinging at the officer.

...and the extended version of that video shows how the protesters chased down that officer first, tackled him, and beat him on the ground (including the exact protester that was shot).

Full video: https://twitter.com/bbcchinese/status/1179082367337713666

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surrender? People criticize the French and others prior to WW2, but would it really have been better to fight unprepared and let a few tens or hundreds of thousands die right off the bat? Sometimes the strategic decision is not the emotional one. "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play." -Wargames

Are you implying Russia should have surrendered? The UK would have likely been forced out of the war before the U.S ever got involved. And then you'd give Germany all the resources of Europe to work with for their next war. Truly, what are you saying.

GP is clearly talking about France, not Russia.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the militia, as a social institution, would correct the issues we see with gun ownership in the US today. The militia is always in its construction open to everyone, whereas the gun community is seen as a kind of subculture today. The militia brings people together in a context where the underlying story about arms is not one of power, violence or even self-defence but rather one of duty, personal discipline,…

It's interesting that militia are looked at with a lot more suspicion than individual gun ownership. Buy a gun as a mentally-healthy individual with no prior criminal record, and nobody bats an eye. Get together with a few hundred of your gun-toting buddies to train together, and the FBI is probably going to come knocking, unless you're a private security contractor with an obvious profit motive. Possibly says a lot…

Probably better to think in terms of a "military philosophy society" or something like that -- the idea isn't to build a logistics chain for conducting combat operations (that is what a militia has to do) but rather provide a pro-social context for people to learn skills and safety and military history. In the event of a conflict, the members of such an organisation would join the military, not deploy as a separate group with their own colours or what have you (which is what a militia would do).

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#719
post #349

This might sound alarmist, but do you think China is the biggest upcoming global problem after climate change? For two reasons: 1. China has a totalitarian ruling system. They intend to realize George Orwell's 1984. 2. Present-day China essentially has no ethics. Take the US in comparison. No matter how perverse the people in power become and even if they do messed up things, the US has some founding morals and princ…

Point #2 actually follows from Point #1. Hayek makes this argument very thoroughly in The Road to Serfdom: Advancement within a totalitarian group or party depends largely on a willingness to do immoral things. The principle that the end justifies the means, which in individualist ethics is regarded as the denial of all morals, in collectivist ethics becomes necessarily the supreme rule. There is literally nothing wh…

During the depths of the Cultural Revolution there were incidents of cannibalism committed not out of hunger but out of a desire to prove unquestionable loyalty to the cadre.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll see if I can find it. The formulation was, I think, like you described; the rural states were defending from a majority rule from more populous coastal states. The US is not a democracy and you have just outlined why. Small autonomous regions were created to limit external influence and allow people to live their lives in peace. A lot of stuff now happens on the national level that was never meant to happen on t…

> The US is not a democracy The United States is a democracy. Democracy does not mean only direct democracy. Representative democracy, democratic republics, and federalism are forms of government compatible with democracy. https://reason.com/2018/01/17/the-united-states-is-both-a-re... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/07/us/usa-democracy.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_republic

I just figured that hundreds of years ago, everyone just agreed that democracy was a good thing, so let's define what we do as democracy. After some time the word's meaning matches what we do.

The first link implies that somewhat, but I would guess we need a historian to map the meaning over time.

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