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Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

spiegel.de

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Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#141

Post by cat199 »

mantoto wrote: post #117

Good news. Those things are a really bad thing. People isolated by gender. By rules defined 1-2000 years ago and while they are taking it serious, priests don't. Yes don't forget the horrible stories of nuns sexually raped by priests! Srsly Why do you think it is a good thing to isolate yourself from modern society and think you can help while not even getting modern society anymore?!

> not even getting modern society anymore

"19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+5&ver...

yep, completely out of touch & with no understanding applicable to the modern world here.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#142

Post by paggle »

dharmach wrote: post #127
gtycomb wrote: post #115

Recently I was in India and certain circumstances connected me with a facility for the elderly run by an order of Catholic Nuns. I visited them quite a few times and while inside those closed gates there was this sense of reverence, peace, and shall I say holiness in many ways truly tangible. And when they bid me goodbye at the main gates, even as we stood there chatting a little while, the town or village people wal…

Same investment can fetch more souls to church in India so it makes sense to invest there and not in Germany.

But the ARPUs in Germany will be much higher, probably enough to cancel out.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#143

Post by high_5 »

magduf wrote: post #137
krychu wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is incorrect. Its original meaning is "assembly", "meeting" and refers to a group of people more than a building/denomination/organization: https://www.compellingtruth.org/definition-church.html .

Wrong. The original meaning of a word is irrelevant. The definition of a word in the English language is whatever people currently use it for.

That's how people start talking past each other just to prove their own worldview. And that's not communication.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#144

Post by high_5 »

vixen99 wrote: post #41
gambiting wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the meantime, Poland is not only building lots of new churches, it even builds new cathedrals adorned in gold[0]. Even the little town I'm from(only 20k population) has 3 churches, and they are all full of gold and it's common knowledge that the local priests are most likely one of the wealthiest people around. [0]This was only finished in 2004, and is the most disgustingly oppulent building I have ever seen: http…

Only anecdotal but my impression is that since 1989 Romania has also been building new churches like there's no tomorrow.

Russia also. Because they were demolished 100 years ago like there's no tomorrow.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#145

Post by hnal943 »

mcv wrote: post #55
hos234 wrote: post #3

As membership declines, just wondering what happens to all the cash the Churches are sitting on, from property, to art, to chuch tax collections. Going to be interesting to see what the next (younger) gen of church leaders do with it...maybe they need an innovation center to modernize the useful aspects of religion.

Do churches have so much money? Young churches are frequently short on money (which they need primarily to rent a building and to hire a preacher). Older churches have lots of buildings, but are rarely swimming in cash these days.

Churches in America are funded by the people that attend them. I think churches in Europe actually receive tax money, which changes the equation pretty significantly.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#146

Post by paggle »

lukebuehler wrote: post #80

Great article, but I think it misses one key aspect of why monasteries are dying out: the lack of lively church communities which used to encourage dedicated people to join the monastic life. Monasteries don't exist in a vacuum, they have an intricate interdependency with normal parishes of families and, more generally, people "in the world." It should not really be the responsibility of monastics to do public relati…

I mean, Christianity has died in Europe. It’s now just a abstruse set of traditions, not a major societal pillar.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#147

Post by high_5 »

maxerickson wrote: post #113
baud147258 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point of why monasteries exist. The goal of a monastery is to provide a place where those who want to retreat from the world to spend their life praying; it's not for everyone. From my view point as a Catholic, the decline of monasteries is more linked to the decline of religion/religious practice than a matter of adaptation to the modern time: there's just less people who could be interest…

Aren't there approximately the most Catholics now vs any other time in history?

Not in Germany.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#148

Post by skissane »

cfmcdonald wrote: post #139
skissane wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But will the membership decline continue in the long-run? Within the Catholic church, there is a traditionalist/conservative minority, who are growing basically through having a high birth rate – rejecting contraception and pre-marital sex, they tend to marry young and have lots of kids. Not all of those kids will follow in their parents' footsteps, but the majority of them probably will. Though these conservatives/t…

Culture is not genes. It's not necessarily true that all the children of traditionalist/conservative Catholics will themselves grow up to be traditionalist/conservative Catholics, so even a higher birthrate in that subgroup doesn't guarantee cultural reproduction.

Of course, there is an attrition/defection rate, and I acknowledged it isn't zero – "Not all of those kids will follow in their parents' footsteps, but the majority of them probably will" – a high birth rate group can still grow exponentially even in the presence of a significant degree of attrition.

What is the attrition rate for traditionalist/conservative Catholics? I don't know. I have seen some figures given for traditionalist/conservative groups of other faiths. [1] suggests the attrition rate for ultra-Orthodox Jews is 20-25%; the ultra-Orthodox birth rate is so high, they are still growing exponentially even if 25% of their children leave. (Most of those will move to less religiously demanding forms of Judaism–Modern Orthodoxy, Conservative/Masorti, Reform–rather than leave the Jewish religion altogether.) Similarly, the Amish have a retention rate of around 85% [2].

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews and the Amish, there are certain barriers to leaving (lack of secular education, limited English skills due to using Yiddish or Pennsylvania German as their main language), for which traditionalist Catholics don't have anything similar. But, I think traditionalist parents try hard to pass on their religious outlook to their children; they don't always succeed, but they probably do have more success than many lukewarm religious parents who aren't trying very hard. Some of them run their own schools–mainstream Catholic schools tend to be moderate-to-progressive in outlook, but there are Catholic schools affiliated to groups like Opus Dei and SSPX who are very conservative–which helps imprint their mindset on to their children (it won't stick with all of them, but to sustain their high growth rate, it isn't necessary that it sticks with them all). I also think that conservative religious groups who aren't as socially isolated as the Amish and the ultra-Orthodox Jews will of necessity tend to build up counter-narratives and memorised counter-arguments (whether or not those arguments are sound) to secular progressive modernity, which does give them some degree of "memetic immunity", and some of their children will culturally inherit that "memetic immunity".

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201...

[2] http://groups.etown.edu/amishstudies/frequently-asked-questi...

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#149

Post by powerset »

mgnn wrote: post #33

The Concent of Saunt Leibniz. We can try turning old monasteries into concents à la Neal Stephenson's Anathem. People can go for a year in a unarian math to just study. Maybe a four consecutive years in such a math get equivalent recognition to a university degree. Whether it is the traditional monastic discipline or the Cartasian discipline, the required basic infrastructure is probably similar. Jeejahs stay outside…

Sign me up!

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#150

Post by Gibbon1 »

paggle wrote: post #146
lukebuehler wrote: post #80

Great article, but I think it misses one key aspect of why monasteries are dying out: the lack of lively church communities which used to encourage dedicated people to join the monastic life. Monasteries don't exist in a vacuum, they have an intricate interdependency with normal parishes of families and, more generally, people "in the world." It should not really be the responsibility of monastics to do public relati…

I mean, Christianity has died in Europe. It’s now just a abstruse set of traditions, not a major societal pillar.

I read that Religion got pretty hammered by WWI and WII in Europe. Especially the state religions all in support during WWI. Soldiers came back unwilling to submit to the church that had told them the war was their sacred duty. Because machine guns and artillery don't care about your god.
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