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Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

spiegel.de

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Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#41

Post by vixen99 »

gambiting wrote: post #29
roel_v wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"from property" In my Dutch town, there are churches that have been converted to hotels, a night club, several bicycle parkings, an award-winning bookshop that promptly went bankrupt, an indoor playground and a slew of restaurants. Others are just torn down. It seems the church has a preference for the last, but many of the expensive ones to maintain (i.e., the ones they want to get rid of first) are monuments and ha…

In the meantime, Poland is not only building lots of new churches, it even builds new cathedrals adorned in gold[0]. Even the little town I'm from(only 20k population) has 3 churches, and they are all full of gold and it's common knowledge that the local priests are most likely one of the wealthiest people around. [0]This was only finished in 2004, and is the most disgustingly oppulent building I have ever seen: http…

Only anecdotal but my impression is that since 1989 Romania has also been building new churches like there's no tomorrow.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#42

Post by egjerlow »

factsaresacred wrote: post #25
dschuetz wrote: post #15

Is there any possible modern approach to a traditional catholic monastery? I think, they are dying out, because of their rigid traditions which rarely make sense in our modern world anymore. The idea of a monastery is to dedicate yourself completely to introspection and philosophy, and serving the monastery with its inhabitants, no matter what religion or philosophy. Why are they having so much trouble to keep up wit…

> I think, they are dying out, because of their rigid traditions which rarely make sense in our modern world anymore. Living a monastic life has never been appealing to the broad population. But to say that an ascetic life devoted to introspection doesn't 'make sense' is misguided. The modern world in predominately a sedentary lifestyle spent between a cube and a couch, interspersed with frenzies of gluttony, consump…

This.

One of the core tasks of the contemplative lifestyle (which can certainly be practiced outside of monasteries) is to be awakened from all of the things we think we need and desire. These are usually the things that the (societally constructed) ego needs to feel secure and comfortable - hence so many contemplative traditions stress the importance of "dying to yourself". This is not 'negative' or even necessarily introverted - in fact, dealing with the insecurities that you have inherited from the expectations of the society around you can make you comfortable both alone and with people. There is no need to impress anyone; no need to feel insecure or alone; you're at peace with yourself and the world.

The contemplative tradition has a lot to teach our world - no manner of scientific or technological progress is going to help us before we're comfortable with being ourselves.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#43

Post by krychu »

gambiting wrote: post #35
fluffything wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes sense. Here in Germany, if you go to a church on easter, christmas, etc. you'd be surprised that most of the people in church are Polish immigrants and their German children. I don't know why, but Polish people are the most religious community I know here.

Because Poland has a long and complicated history with the Catholic church. For a lot of people, the Catholic Church represented the only oasis of freedom during the communist rule after WW2 and before 1989, and can be credited with accelerating the end of communism in Poland, especially with a Polish pope being elected merely a decade earlier. Nowadays though I would call it what it is - it's cancer growing unchecke…

Church is also the community of people coming together, it’s nuns and priests going on missions to countries in need, it’s priests doing Sunday service for people who believe. Have you excluded these from your definition of Church or do you think these are also cancer?

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#44

Post by krychu »

gambiting wrote: post #29
roel_v wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"from property" In my Dutch town, there are churches that have been converted to hotels, a night club, several bicycle parkings, an award-winning bookshop that promptly went bankrupt, an indoor playground and a slew of restaurants. Others are just torn down. It seems the church has a preference for the last, but many of the expensive ones to maintain (i.e., the ones they want to get rid of first) are monuments and ha…

In the meantime, Poland is not only building lots of new churches, it even builds new cathedrals adorned in gold[0]. Even the little town I'm from(only 20k population) has 3 churches, and they are all full of gold and it's common knowledge that the local priests are most likely one of the wealthiest people around. [0]This was only finished in 2004, and is the most disgustingly oppulent building I have ever seen: http…

It doesn’t turn people away since your characterization of priests and church is inaccurate. I agree there are anomalies and outliers but your description suggests these might be norms. Also, I believe people don’t conflate what their belief is at the core with what a particular priest does.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#45

Post by baud147258 »

dschuetz wrote: post #15

Is there any possible modern approach to a traditional catholic monastery? I think, they are dying out, because of their rigid traditions which rarely make sense in our modern world anymore. The idea of a monastery is to dedicate yourself completely to introspection and philosophy, and serving the monastery with its inhabitants, no matter what religion or philosophy. Why are they having so much trouble to keep up wit…

I think you're missing the point of why monasteries exist. The goal of a monastery is to provide a place where those who want to retreat from the world to spend their life praying; it's not for everyone. From my view point as a Catholic, the decline of monasteries is more linked to the decline of religion/religious practice than a matter of adaptation to the modern time: there's just less people who could be interested in such a life.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#46

Post by ykevinator »

baud147258 wrote: post #45
dschuetz wrote: post #15

Is there any possible modern approach to a traditional catholic monastery? I think, they are dying out, because of their rigid traditions which rarely make sense in our modern world anymore. The idea of a monastery is to dedicate yourself completely to introspection and philosophy, and serving the monastery with its inhabitants, no matter what religion or philosophy. Why are they having so much trouble to keep up wit…

I think you're missing the point of why monasteries exist. The goal of a monastery is to provide a place where those who want to retreat from the world to spend their life praying; it's not for everyone. From my view point as a Catholic, the decline of monasteries is more linked to the decline of religion/religious practice than a matter of adaptation to the modern time: there's just less people who could be interest…

Plus there is growing consensus that God cannot exist.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#47

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

ykevinator wrote: post #46
baud147258 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point of why monasteries exist. The goal of a monastery is to provide a place where those who want to retreat from the world to spend their life praying; it's not for everyone. From my view point as a Catholic, the decline of monasteries is more linked to the decline of religion/religious practice than a matter of adaptation to the modern time: there's just less people who could be interest…

Plus there is growing consensus that God cannot exist.

Why address such a comment to someone who has made clear they believe in the existence of God? There is no reason to provoke peoples' religious beliefs.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#48

Post by wolfgke »

Krasnol wrote: post #2

30 years might be enough to become a popular retreat from technology. They just need proper online marketing.

> 30 years might be enough to become a popular retreat from technology. They just need proper online marketing.

Was the contradiction between these two sentences an actually intended stylistic device ("retreat from technology" vs. "proper online marketing")?

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#49

Post by dr_dshiv »

ykevinator wrote: post #46
baud147258 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point of why monasteries exist. The goal of a monastery is to provide a place where those who want to retreat from the world to spend their life praying; it's not for everyone. From my view point as a Catholic, the decline of monasteries is more linked to the decline of religion/religious practice than a matter of adaptation to the modern time: there's just less people who could be interest…

Plus there is growing consensus that God cannot exist.

Can I try to convert you? Great! Thanks for your implied consent. Here goes:

The "One" god of Christianity comes more from Neoplatonism than Judaism. The Neoplatonic Oneness, which was washed out in various times in Christian history, is fully commensurable with contemporary science. Oneness can be experienced as the common mystical experience of "we are all one, man!" But for Neoplatonists, it only made sense that the ineffable and impossible to fully understand "One" was the origin of the universe and the basis of divinity.

This notion of Oneness is different from typical conceptions of the one god as a person. It is not. To understand true, original Christianity, one must reject the idea of personhood -- god isn't a person (and actually, neither are we--it's just a useful illusion)

In a nutshell: in the beginning of time, there was the Oneness and the emanation from the Oneness, which was known as the Logos. It makes sense here to think big bang: the whole universe in a single point. But from there, the emanations, the logos built everything else. The emanations can return to the Oneness through the creation of new wholes and harmonies (think molecules, stars and solar systems -- onenesses made of parts). This wholeness/harmony is the source of divine goodness. Here's the Christian part: when a person believes in the Logos they have eternal life because they recognize that their life is part of the eternal Logos.

That's what Christianity was to early church fathers like Origen or Clement. I forgot to mention -- Jesus was described as the incarnation of the logos.

Fun fact: Logos is equivalent to "Dao" in Daoism.

So, How'd I do? Are you more open now to the mysteries of Christianity?

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#50

Post by dr_dshiv »

incompatible wrote: post #22
dschuetz wrote: post #15

Is there any possible modern approach to a traditional catholic monastery? I think, they are dying out, because of their rigid traditions which rarely make sense in our modern world anymore. The idea of a monastery is to dedicate yourself completely to introspection and philosophy, and serving the monastery with its inhabitants, no matter what religion or philosophy. Why are they having so much trouble to keep up wit…

We could try science / engineering monasteries as described by Neal Stephenson in Anathem?

If you go back to the earliest monasteries, it would be the Pythagoreans of southern Italy c.525BC. They conducted the first attested hypothesis-driven scientific experiments -- while pursuing a simple, spiritual and communal lifestyle. Josephus and Philo of Alexandria described the Essenes and Therapeuts as Pythagorean -- and those monastic groups are largely where Christian monasticism emerged from.
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